German culture after a 1917 negotiated peace

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Deleted member 1487

Here is the scenario:
Romania doesn't enter WW1, Falkenhayn doesn't lose his job and limps on at OHL until the Russian Revolution, so gets credit for that and this rehabilitates his image with the public, keeping Hindenburg and Ludendorff out of OHL.
As a result there is no resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare, so the US doesn't enter the war and Entente loans run out when they run out of collateral in 1917. Congress doesn't authorize unsecured loans just as per OTL prior to the OTL DoW change of policy. The Entente starts to fall apart and decides to start to negotiate after the Russian Revolution in February and the failed French offensive in April.

Falkenhayn, being very interested in peace, pushes to accept the following peace:
Germany gets Luxembourg and some border modifications in the West, including Briey-Longwy. Belgium is nominally independent, but gives up Belgian Luxembourg. Germany owes no reparations. Germany loses its colonies, but receives some monetary compensation for their loss. In the East Germany gets to have what it occupies, including Lithuania, Poland, Courland, and Estland, which it sets up as puppet states (Congress Poland does not lose territory to Germany and is set up as a Kingdom under a Habsburg). A-H gets to control the core of Serbia, which is set up as a puppet state under the Obrenovics. The border with Italy goes back to the pre-war one. Bulgaria is enhanced by gains from Serbia. The Ottomans get their pre-war borders restored.

The war is over by July 1917.

Despite its losses, Germany is clearly the 'victor' in terms of its relative strength and gains compared to its enemies, though there are complaints from the far right about Falkenhayn getting a sour deal. A-H is badly weakened and unstable, with violence breaking out by 1918 in Hungary and Bohemia, which is suppressed with the pre-war political structure locked in under Kaiser Karl. The Young Turks are badly weakened politically by the damage done to the Empire, with nothing positive to show for their efforts.

Among the Allies the Italians have massive social unrest due to the major cost of the war without any gain. Britain is somewhat stable, as they gain some German colonies and defended Belgian neutrality, but haven't reduced the German navy and are in major debt from the war. France is a basket case due to the territorial losses (colonial gains are not a consolation) and human losses, not to mention huge debt. Germany is still a major threat to them and the leftist movements are very much in conflict with the right, who blames the 'traitorous left' for the unfavorable peace. Political violence is picking up in the wake of the war, as the economy is badly hurt by the destruction to the major industrial areas Germany captured during the war and the loss of some of the border iron mines Germany annexed. Even the nationalization of pre-war German owned mines in France doesn't help the national mood. Russia is locking in the Revolution under the provisional government and is struggling with the post-Czar political structure, especially as the nation has been upended in so many ways by the war. The Bolsheviks don't rise to prominence, so its still a Menshevik country.

This brings us to Germany; what is its culture going to look like here with having avoided the H-L dictatorship, having 'won' the war, but not in a clear way, being majorly in debt (mostly to itself), having the far right blame Falkenhayn (who once again becomes war minister) and the Kaiser/Bethmann-Holweg for the 'raw deal' that saw Germany not hold all its war gains at the peace and lose its colonies, plus have its only major ally A-H in the process of falling apart. The Ottomans are dropping out as an ally to try and hold the badly damaged country together, and Bulgaria isn't a necessarily reliable ally.
Politically the left has become militant during the war, while the 'moderates' under the Kaiser are both strengthened and weakened by the victory and rising extremism in the political scene due to the peace. The far right is rising in numbers in 1917, including in the aftermath of the war, as guys like Ludendorff are trying to gin up the nationalism of the middle class, which has taken an economic hit due to inflation during the war. Unemployment is rising once the war contracts end and taxes are kept up to pay for the war. International trade picks back up with the US, but other trade with its traditional partners (Russia being a major source of raw materials and purchaser of goods) is still badly disrupted, as a result of lingering hostilities from the war, lack of demand thanks to the Entente nations having industrialized more during the war, and political disruptions caused by the war/aftermath of the war. The US has also picked up some of Germany's pre-war trade with Latin America too.

So in the post war world Germany is dealing with occupations in the East (not nearly as bad as Brest-Litovsk and therefore manageable), political extremism, inflation (not anywhere near as bad as OTL), unemployment/lack of trade, debt, higher taxes, a huge population deficit (IIRC well over 1 million men dead by mid-1917), massive numbers of disabled veterans, major social upheaval from the war (women's empowerment, traditional social structures breaking down, economic woes), instability in Europe, and the effect of major demobilization on the economy and population. Generations of men have been brutalized in the trenches and even with the ego boost of 'winning', they are going to have major social trauma, especially as the political parties get their claws into them and spin their narratives about what the war meant.

How does German culture develop in this situation?
 
Has the 1917 'Easter Message' - promising a reform of the Prussian electoral system - been launched?
 

Deleted member 1487

Has the 1917 'Easter Message' - promising a reform of the Prussian electoral system - been launched?

No, the circumstances leading up to it are butterflied away. The labor unrest caused by Ludendorff's attempt to militarize factory labor is prevented by Ludendorff not coming to power and the Hindenburg program never being enacted. This also prevents the major economic dislocation of that program and the Turnip Winter (and Coal Crisis) of the winter of 1916-17. Overall the home front in Germany is quite a bit more stable and less hungry, so the Kaiser isn't as discredited as OTL. Also Falkenhayn was pro-labor at the expense of the industrialists, so labor was actually pretty docile under his tenure, as the War Ministry would side with them in labor disputes. The industrialists hated him for it and pushed their proxy, Ludendorff, so I could see problems arising with German business with Falkenhayn hanging on and sticking it to them for longer.

I'm not sure how the USPD would form without the labor disputes caused by Ludendorff, but they did have their roots under Falkenhayn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USPD

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfsdienstgesetz
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg-Programm
http://books.google.com/books?id=2Y...EwDTgK#v=onepage&q=hindenburg program&f=false
 
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The roots of the USPD were anti-war and anti-establishment. With the war ended, their supporters should not be too numerous anymore. - I suppose the October Revolution in Russia has also been butterflied away. Thus, the MSPD ought to be able to pocket the USPD again. - Under the circumstances you describe, the establishment has about one legislation period either to drastically improve economic conditions - or to grant more political influence to the working class, before serious social unrest starts. The decline of the old elites isn't as marked as IOTL, but it nevertheless has happened. If they try to continue like before the war, they won't get far. The war has mobilised the masses, they won't knuckle under again.
 

Deleted member 1487

The roots of the USPD were anti-war and anti-establishment. With the war ended, their supporters should not be too numerous anymore. - I suppose the October Revolution in Russia has also been butterflied away. Thus, the MSPD ought to be able to pocket the USPD again. - Under the circumstances you describe, the establishment has about one legislation period either to drastically improve economic conditions - or to grant more political influence to the working class, before serious social unrest starts. The decline of the old elites isn't as marked as IOTL, but it nevertheless has happened. If they try to continue like before the war, they won't get far. The war has mobilised the masses, they won't knuckle under again.

Can the left and right work together to force constitutional reform and give the Reichstag the power to legislate? Both have their reasons for wanting reform, but they don't especially like one another and I'd think they'd try to undermine the other if it looks like one side was going to win a majority and be able to have the power to push through their agenda.

Also which way is Germany going to lean here? I think the right isn't as empowered as OTL, as the Vaterland Partei wasn't formed until late 1917 and was dependent on Ludendorff's rise to power. Also the lack of the left rising up in 1918-19 will prevent its collapse as a political force in the immediate aftermath of the war, as per OTL. They won't get as radicalized and if anything the 'mainstream left' will have more of an attachment to the establishment than the right wing.
 
Hum first there will be a 'mutilated victory' myth and will be huge after all they were winning and winning big.

I say that because honestly, after this kind of massacre very little can satisfy the people.

The internal situation will be very similar to the italian 'biennio rosso' with right and left violence hitting the streets and trouble will arise if anyone will found someone of charismatic and political savy enough to use this particular moment to get away with the things of the past.

Maybe there will be a return of Pangermanism, with the A-H in trouble and frankly with the German Empire not really ready to give them unlimited support as the people is tired and not really supporting of continued military adventures we can see a gradual disintegration of the country or even a communist revolution (who ironically can use ideology as an unification banner) so even with a lot of reluctance Berlin can feel the necessity to take control of the German land.

Regarding the culture, well i feel that in general the mood will be a clear break up with the past, basically the rampant militarism and natiolism had received a very hard hit as many of the value of the past.
 
Can the left and right work together to force constitutional reform and give the Reichstag the power to legislate?

There's no right mass basis. On the right, you have the conservatives (leave everything as it is, preserve our privileges) and the national-liberals (Stresemann's lot, by that time still very annexionist). Their power base is Prussia, therefore, they'll resist to any change of the electoral system.
The rest of the right is extra-parliamentary and also has no mass basis, but is rooted in the infamous Oberlehrers and Professors, which after the massacre of the war should have lost much of their erstwhile appeal.
The SPD is the only mass party; they can mobilise millions - and they can paralyse the country in a general strike. Before the war, the other parties used to support the government, because the government protected them from the socialists. Expect them to try to continue that policy. (Except perhaps the left-liberals.) That should lead to massive social upheaval.
 
Here is the scenario:
Romania doesn't enter WW1,
How do you get them to stay neutral ?,Since otl the discussion in Romania was how to join.and it as been settled after the dead of the king Carol,when the pro entente camp won.

Germany loses its colonies, .
Way ? in a victory scenario for Germany,it is more likely that Germany is unable to keep them and as to release them maybe with the creation of some of Commonwealth.,

Russia is locking in the Revolution under the provisional government and is struggling with the post-Czar political structure, especially as the nation has been upended in so many ways by the war. The Bolsheviks don't rise to prominence, so its still a Menshevik country.

Here i believe that still the civil war path is the most likely.

This brings us to Germany; what is its culture going to look like here with having avoided the H-L dictatorship, having 'won' the war, but not in a clear way, being majorly in debt (mostly to itself), having the far right blame Falkenhayn (who once again becomes war minister) and the Kaiser/Bethmann-Holweg for the 'raw deal' that saw Germany not hold all its war gains at the peace and lose its colonies,

Well Germany won the war,the problem for Germany is that the cost of will force her to reform,(and lose her colonies).and here is where here problems start,since there will be as struggle between the conservative (and reactionary) camp and the modernist.so the German culture will be influence by the to camps more the the war.

plus have its only major ally A-H in the process of falling apart.
Yes but with Germany in better shape it could turn in some sort of control demolition,and as long as A-H breakup doesn’t evolve in to a civil war.It might lose a major ally but it will gain a number of smaller state totality dependent on her.

The Ottomans are dropping out as an ally to try and hold the badly damaged country together, and Bulgaria isn't a necessarily reliable ally.

They where Allies for the war,and they will remain in the economic and political sphere of influence,All write the ottomans will be in trouble.having to keep there country in one pace and reform.

Politically the left has become militant during the war, while the 'moderates' under the Kaiser are both strengthened and weakened by the victory and rising extremism in the political scene due to the peace.

The post war,main argument won't between left and right but,between reform (here is where the left-right thing intervenes) and not reform.

The far right is rising in numbers in 1917, including in the aftermath of the war, as guys like Ludendorff are trying to gin up the nationalism of the middle class, which has taken an economic hit due to inflation during the war.

The rise and falls in numbers of the political camps won't be from the aftermath math of the war but from the reform/not reform struggle,

Unemployment is rising once the war contracts end and taxes are kept up to pay for the war. International trade picks back up with the US, but other trade with its traditional partners (Russia being a major source of raw materials and purchaser of goods) is still badly disrupted, as a result of lingering hostilities from the war, lack of demand thanks to the Entente nations having industrialized more during the war, and political disruptions caused by the war/aftermath of the war. The US has also picked up some of Germany's pre-war trade with Latin America too.

So in the post war world Germany is dealing with occupations in the East (not nearly as bad as Brest-Litovsk and therefore manageable), political extremism, inflation (not anywhere near as bad as OTL), unemployment/lack of trade, debt, higher taxes, a huge population deficit (IIRC well over 1 million men dead by mid-1917), massive numbers of disabled veterans, major social upheaval from the war (women's empowerment, traditional social structures breaking down, economic woes), instability in Europe, and the effect of major demobilization on the economy and population. Generations of men have been brutalized in the trenches and even with the ego boost of 'winning', they are going to have major social trauma, especially as the political parties get their claws into them and spin their narratives about what the war meant.

As for the economy.
Yes,Russia is out,but central and eastern ar not,so Germany needs for food is satisfied, also her need for oil,at least utill the technological, and economic progress will demand more oil.And Germany will have a export market for her industrial goods.
The debt is mostly to her self,so as long as Germany is not run by idiots it will not be a problem.

The thing that will affect the economy is how wins the reform/not-reform and how to reform discussion.

How does German culture develop in this situation?
How wins this reform/not-reform and how to reform.
 
Hum first there will be a 'mutilated victory' myth and will be huge after all they were winning and winning big.

I say that because honestly, after this kind of massacre very little can satisfy the people.

Exactly that. Even if from an OTL-viewpoint Germany is the clear winner (France exhausted, Russia broken, Germany much stronger than IOTL, no burden of colonies, Ottomans surviving as a close ally thus German grip on oil likely).

It won't stop some major trends - liberalization, democratization and the ascend of the SPD.

What it will, though, is further cement militarism. It's the military and the generals that "won" the war, albeit not thorough enough. Any trench-mystification ITTL will be so much worse with Germany being somewhat victorious. The point ITTL will be that it wasn't enough. You'll have a Germany that believes that militarism and war do work but you need to be more "total"...
 
Hum first there will be a 'mutilated victory' myth and will be huge after all they were winning and winning big.

Why "mutilated victory" ? Victories are not mutilated,but the do have a cost,and gain,and form that you could get one of the camps saying that the others have mutilated/lost the victory,so what might arouse is a you have mutilate the victory /or lost myth.
 
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yourworstnightmare

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1) Germany would try to keep Eastern Europe separate from West, and negotiate with the Bolsheviks a separate treaty.

2) I'm not sure Germany would be willing to give up all colonies. Especially since there would be a good opportunity to demand Congo from the Belgians.
 
1) Germany would try to keep Eastern Europe separate from West, and negotiate with the Bolsheviks a separate treaty.

2) I'm not sure Germany would be willing to give up all colonies. Especially since there would be a good opportunity to demand Congo from the Belgians.

1. the will or at least Eastern Europe will gravitate towards them since the west will be in recovery and the Russian in turmoil.

2.The might have to,maybe not to some one.so the might be force to relinquish them.
since the victory in Europe will be costly and the will not have the power or will to keep them,and the will be busy integrating Eastern Europe and rebuilding from the war.
France and UK passed through a process of relinquishes after the second world war.
 

Deleted member 1487

1) Germany would try to keep Eastern Europe separate from West, and negotiate with the Bolsheviks a separate treaty.

2) I'm not sure Germany would be willing to give up all colonies. Especially since there would be a good opportunity to demand Congo from the Belgians.

1) The Bolsheviks never rose to power here, as the February Revolution is not discredited by the Kerensky offensives and the various other issues it experienced as the war went on; without US loans propping up the Entente war effort, especially Russia's, the Entente ends the war prior to the Bolsheviks rising. That doesn't mean they wouldn't rise after the war, but the peace deal is here negotiated by the 2nd provisional government.

2) Germany has already lost all of her colonies and just has a few guerillas running around in Central Africa. She has no way to take her colonies back and the gains in Europe, not to mention the pledge to ensure the Ottomans are made whole again territorially, means that the Germans are giving up their colonies to expedite the peace deal and are trading them for Ottoman territory held by the Brits and Russians. Britain is not keen on the Germans getting much from Belgium and here they are getting Belgian Luxembourg in lieu of colonial restitution. Keeping Congo is Germany's gift to Belgium in lieu of reparations for damages inflicted during the war, as the returns from that are what will (and did IOTL) help Belgium repair itself. Plus Germany has to deal with occupying a large swath of territory in the East (not Brest-Litovsk big, but big enough) on her own, as A-H is busy trying to not fall apart and figure out what to do about uniting Galicia and Congress Poland without pissing other ethnic groups off.


How do you get them to stay neutral ?,Since otl the discussion in Romania was how to join.and it as been settled after the dead of the king Carol,when the pro entente camp won.
We could posit that the A-Hs don't do as badly during the Brusilov offensive, which triggered Romanian entry into the war. As it was King Carol died in late 1914, so the Romanians could have entered the war in the winter of 1914 at the lowest ebb of A-H military power and probably done better than even during the Brusilov offensive, but they hedged and missed the chance. So they were pretty cautious about entering the war; IOTL they only entered in 1916 after it looked like A-H was falling apart for good; here have the A-Hs actually build the defensive positions they were supposed to and not mass their forces all in the first line of defense in range of all the Russian artillery and the Russians won't just roll over the A-Hs.
 
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The peace terms seem reasonable.

Agree with the general consensus that Germans are going to look back and say "we wern't prepared enough" and so we paid with our millions of casualties and our colonial empire.

I can't image Kaiser Wilhelm is going to be terribly popular, I see an abdication/retirement with the Crown Prince taking over. Some right/left polarization has to occur, kind of like in America after they lost Vietnam, some people say we should have committed more longer, some people say we should have never got involved.

The Germans are going to look back and say "what did our navy do for us again". Assuming here that the merchant subs and such things as the cruise of the raider Moewe were the big sucesses, look at the Navy to shrink to a Baltic dominance fleet, 20 or so big submarines capable of transport, and some "show the flag" cruisers.

The prestige of the Army is still intact however.

The reduced cost of the fleet plus the removal of colonial expenses is enough to puppetize the eastern countries.

A strategic resources reserve is going to be created (oil, phospahtes, copper, rubber, enough for 4 years if cut off).

The army planners are going to be thinking for the next 30 years how can we win the battles of the Somme and Verdun this time?
 

yourworstnightmare

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There would be issues. With no October revolution Finnish independence might be postponed, but it's a ticking bomb before Helsinki declare secession, and if Russia is not in a Civil War, she would do more to defeat the secession. Finland was also having it's own Class Struggle which historically led to the Finnish Civil War, where Germany actively helped the Whites.

But organizing the Baltics as a Baltic Duchy dominated by Baltic Germans (and closely tied to Germany) and a Lithuanian Kingdom with some German prince as king would make sense. Poland will create a major headache. Poland can't exist. But neither can Poland be annexed. Poland is the enigma for every CP victory.
 
The peace terms seem reasonable.

Agree with the general consensus that Germans are going to look back and say "we wern't prepared enough" and so we paid with our millions of casualties and our colonial empire.

I can't image Kaiser Wilhelm is going to be terribly popular, I see an abdication/retirement with the Crown Prince taking over. Some right/left polarization has to occur, kind of like in America after they lost Vietnam, some people say we should have committed more longer, some people say we should have never got involved.

The Germans are going to look back and say "what did our navy do for us again". Assuming here that the merchant subs and such things as the cruise of the raider Moewe were the big sucesses, look at the Navy to shrink to a Baltic dominance fleet, 20 or so big submarines capable of transport, and some "show the flag" cruisers.

The prestige of the Army is still intact however.

The reduced cost of the fleet plus the removal of colonial expenses is enough to puppetize the eastern countries.

A strategic resources reserve is going to be created (oil, phospahtes, copper, rubber, enough for 4 years if cut off).

The army planners are going to be thinking for the next 30 years how can we win the battles of the Somme and Verdun this time?

Very good points. I agree that preparing for a blockade will be paramount and that the navy will be completely rethought. Furthermore I thinknthe Germans will concentrate on Britain - the general viewpoint would be that without Britain they would rule the continent. Question is whether Germany prepares for an invasion or tries to compromise or both. Of course this also depends on how Britain reacts to that: they gave up splendid isolation, but all those losses were only for some colonies while the Germans still dominate the continent?


Poland will create a major headache. Poland can't exist. But neither can Poland be annexed. Poland is the enigma for every CP victory.

IMHO you get a viable Polish state if you add (Western) Galicia (better to add 2/3 of Posen but that won't happen ITTL). There's a Habsburg king in Warsaw after all. Poland without Posen is possible, Poland without Lemberg is more difficult, Poland without Lemberg is a joke.
 

Deimos

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Along with the political landscape the rest of the culture will change. With some parts of the bourgeoisis reluctantly supporting the Kaiser there will be a lot more anti-bourgeois clamoring from the socialists and the arts.

Dadaism will probably be more radical and outspoken - it was already existent at this time and will perhaps even be more controversial.

On the far right side there will still be the figures of the conservative revolutionary movement like Jünger, Spengler and van den Bruck but with a lot of their ideas more popular and more thought of as vindicated.


A lot of the unspoken but almost universally practiced "low culture" will be a modern form of Biedermeier and a subconscious wish to return to the good times between 1871-1913. Imagine something like the children's books of Erich Kaestner to be more definitely set in that period.
Speaking of him he would be one of the representatives of the anti-militarist faction in the cultural landscape like Erich Maria Remarque.


With the old order triumphant a lot of what the conservative protestant German confession theology of the late 19th century and early 1900s will be thought of as verified.


All these people and institutions will probably have to react to a political divide between the liberal demand for reforms, the socialist growing more radical (and very likely in some small parts militant) due to no USPD and the need to quickly capitalise on the discontent of the population and conservative stonewalling.
 
In this scenario would there still be a rise in antisemitism? I'm thinking not since there would be no "stabbed in the back" myth.
 

Deimos

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In this scenario would there still be a rise in antisemitism? I'm thinking not since there would be no "stabbed in the back" myth.

Very unlikely. With more minorities annexed into Germany and a very likely influx of imigrants from the former Russian territories who are looking for work and the continued transformation of these Middle and Easter European territories and with propping up AH and the Ottomans into markets for German goods in exchange for ressources and the need to bridge the growing internal political divide between classes I imagine there will be a subsequent political need to stress the inclusivist and supposedly stabilizing "Reich"- idea rather than to play the nationalist and racist card.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
The two things that jump out to me for culture in politics is shortage of men and closer than OTL USA/German relations. Germany/AH are short millions of workers from no war TL. And the USA never had the anti-German wave.

So, this means Germany will be looking for million of new workers. Like France, I think you will have a shortage of marriage age men. So lets look at details. In the occupied French area, I think it is safe to assume that we will see net French migration to outside of the occupied area. Probably true for Belgium Luxembourg. I assume you are adding a bit of Southern Belgium to Luxembourg. While it will be a minor issue if only thing happening, the net loss of a few 100K people over a few decades will be noticeable. Now to Poles. You had net polish migration from Posen and other areas to German industrial cities. With a Poland existing and probably doing ok economically, I think this stops and probably reverses. I tend to assume a strongly self identifying Polish worker who is looking to leave Posen will find Warsaw more attractive than Essen, if both have good jobs. Gutting A-H demographics by war will mean you don't get workers from there. Same for Ethnic Russians from Russia. Now I guess you have to look at Russian and Polish treatment of Jews. If the Jews are treated badly enough, you might get a big flow. If this is true, you get a more OstJewish aspect to Germany. Or do German companies seek workers from the Ottoman empire or other Islamic lands. Not sure on this one.

Now to politics. I think Polish parties are less important. You may well have net population flows to Poland, you have a Hapsburg to speak for Polish interest and be a mediator. You have a labor shortage. This is good for unions. This is good for the Socialists. Looks like SPD will dominate the government. Army is more a militia now than the reliable conservative instrument prewar. Kaiser will make concession to keep things working, and lots of concessions.

Surface navy will be discredited. Can naval air service and U-boat commands separate themselves from failure of capital fleet? Looks like to me we see loss of power to naval lobby. Plus with Russia preparing for round two, and looks like France, we see strong Army lobby. Kaiser needs SPD votes, so do we see more non-noble officer commissions? People often criticize failure of harsh peace terms and harsh reparations, but here shows other case. Lack of reparations and large scale annexations of France means France can start rebuilding army immediately. I think you will have German generals saying that "We have not signed a peace deal, but a 25 year cease fire". And I tend to think they are right, in this case.

Culture. German excluded from British Empire. Excluded from French Empire. Only remaining choice is USA sphere of influence. Kaiser will kiss US presidents figurative ass to get trade deals. Same with whatever additional terms a place like Brazil demands. Germany needs things like Rubber that don't grow in MittelEurope or Ottoman Empire. No purging of German culture in USA. So culturally, you will see things flow from USA to Germany. So lets say Jazz still becomes huge in USA. You will see Jazz flow into Germany. And vice versa. I would not be sure that after loss, Germans are welcome at say French Riveria or British empire as tourists. So a lot more Germans travel to USA compared to OTL, among small % who travel overseas a lot.
 
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