German capture of Moscow 1941?

dmz23

The OP talks about the Germans going straight for Moscow and ignoring the forces in the Ukraine so Uman doesn't occur. Hence the Soviet armour is still there.

Steve

No, the Op says that Guderians forces were not directed into the Ukraine and continued on to Moscow, thus no battle of kiev. In any case, AGC played no part in the battle of Uman, it was Rundstedts panzer group supported by Romanians/Hungarians that crushed the Soviet forces. Now I can't see why it would be butterflied away just because the AGC is going for Moscow. It was a golden opportunity to weaken Soviet forces on the road to Kiev. Regardless of decisions taken over AGCs objectives, I can't see Rundstedt letting the moment slide and allowing the Soviets time to withdraw and consolidate around Kiev. Uman would definately happen and the Soviet AFVs would get smashed up just like OTL and just like OTL the remaining AFVs would end up defending Kiev.

Overall though Rundstedts Army group has to keep up the pressure on the Soviets in the south, to prevent them from transferring units to the central front and generally mucking up German plans. It would be pretty much critical to have AGS's offensive ops continue if the Germans go for Moscow IMO.
 
i think perhaps the more interesting question would be what would happen if hitler didnt waste so much time to make up his mind

there where critical days of inactivity while the high command fought it out over moscow and kiev

if guderian had been sent post haste he would have had more days pre winter for typhoon

i know it prolly doesnt make a HUGE difference but maybe he could have captured tula and had a more secure defensive line
 
As long as the Germans can functionally isolate Moscow, in particular preventing its use as a road/rail junction between over-running tracks/roads and artillery interdiction before the winter of 1941 they have put the Sovs in the hurt locker. They can take parts of Moscow without bleeding too much and even wrecked buildings help during the winter. Absent any meaningful resupply by spring many have starved, and the military forces there are hungry & short of ammo. Any apparatchniks left in the city are low functional, and the disruptions caused by moving the central planners (and losing some) have happened.

One way Germans can markedly improve their supply situation on the eastern front is to begin before 1939 training more RR troops, and by doing this they can convert more Russian track to standard faster. Make supply easier, helps because Sovs destroyed or moved much rolling stock. Also repair any disruptions faster. Don't need lots of these troops..maybe 10K or more, and not much handwave to do.
 
Many posters have quite rightly made the point about Moscow being the hub of the Russian communications network.
Whether to occupy it, or at the very least dominate it, would be a great advantage to the Germans.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned, that Stalin almost left Moscow by train, he stayed yes - but this was after a major effort was put into the defence works of Moscow.
In this situation, with no meeting with Gurerian & Kliest, but where AGC goes onwards to the east and its goal of Moscow, assisted perhaps by Manstien:
- they will be more panic, both with in the civil population and to a certain extent with the political/military.
Some say, it will be like Stallingrad - yes maybe, but that happened because the Russians had a secure area (the other side of the Volga), and more importantly the example of having already beaten the Germans at Moscow.
At this point ATL the Germans are unbeaten - except with the stalemate of Leningrad!
Interestly, in The Moscow Option, by David Downing - the loss of Moscow wasn't felt as a disaster but more where the Germans went next.
 
If the Germans moved quickly enough and in enough strength they could have taken Moscow before the Russian were able to strengthen its defenses.
The capture of the city would in effect severly damage the ability of the Russian military to move its forces and damage the morale of the country.

If this takes place early enough it is also possible that the Germans could also make sizable gains in the Ukraine ad possibly capture Leningrad. It would have also encourage the Finns to be more agress ive in the capture of Murmask and Leningrad.
 
another point that maybe worth mentioning if the germans actualy make it to moscow even if it turns into a sort of stalingrad the losses they suffer in terms of manpower and espesialy heavy equipment might actualy be lighter than the once they suffered durring the winter counter offensive.

I saw a documentary that says it was somewhere around 300k casualties they suffered and lots of tanks,plains and other heavy equipment they had to simply abbandon.
and losses suffered due to the cold might also be slightly less because even if the city would be reduced to ruins it would Provide more shelter than the russian plains did OTL.

and even if they still take those losses they would properly inflict more on the soviets than they did OTL during the russian winter counter offensive.

After all city fighting is normaly quite a bloody affair for both party's.
 
another point that maybe worth mentioning if the germans actualy make it to moscow even if it turns into a sort of stalingrad the losses they suffer in terms of manpower and espesialy heavy equipment might actualy be lighter than the once they suffered durring the winter counter offensive.

I saw a documentary that says it was somewhere around 300k casualties they suffered and lots of tanks,plains and other heavy equipment they had to simply abbandon.
and losses suffered due to the cold might also be slightly less because even if the city would be reduced to ruins it would Provide more shelter than the russian plains did OTL.

and even if they still take those losses they would properly inflict more on the soviets than they did OTL during the russian winter counter offensive.

After all city fighting is normaly quite a bloody affair for both party's.


But when are you going to have the Germans take Moscow?
If it happens before the winter, they still lose a LOT of troops in the city - so do the Russians, but Stalin could care less. Then they still get hit by the winter offensive - maybe fewer Russian troops, but fewer German ones too.

If it happens during the winter, the Russian counteroffensive will presumably centre on the German suply to Moscow. And since the German tanks and planes arent going anywhere, that could be another, worse, Stalingrad.

Given the German logistic nightmare , I cant see them getting close to Moscow much sooner than they did (end of Autumn), and if they do then they get to play with what the mud does to their logistics while having all their infabtry getting chewed up in Moscow...
 
But when are you going to have the Germans take Moscow?
If it happens before the winter, they still lose a LOT of troops in the city - so do the Russians, but Stalin could care less. Then they still get hit by the winter offensive - maybe fewer Russian troops, but fewer German ones too.

If it happens during the winter, the Russian counteroffensive will presumably centre on the German suply to Moscow. And since the German tanks and planes arent going anywhere, that could be another, worse, Stalingrad.

Given the German logistic nightmare , I cant see them getting close to Moscow much sooner than they did (end of Autumn), and if they do then they get to play with what the mud does to their logistics while having all their infabtry getting chewed up in Moscow...

true but in OTL the germans had lots of losses both in manpower and equipment without inflicting serious losses on the soviets durring OTL winter offensive,and even if they still suffer the same losses in the battle for moscow
they are still going to take more soviet troops with them than OTL and disrupt or even cut the soviet rail/communications network atleast to some degree.

so while it is debatable if they actualy could take moscow or not or more importantly hold it against the the inevetable counter offensive, it would still mean that they would be in a better position vs the soviets in '42.

and i am sure that stalin wouldn't care about those losses as you said, until he needs them because even the soviets need time to rais and equip new one's and come the spring they might just find them selfs short of those.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
One problem with the whole bombing Germany into submission, is how will they get the bombs to Germany, in the late war in OTL allied bombers could start from either bases in contignental Europe or move over large pathes of friendly territorium, they can't here, beside that the Germany defensive position is much better with a bigger production, the loss rate for the allies will be a lot bigger, beside that Germany can move a lot of industry east out of allied range. At least and not last it will take at least until 1948-49 before the allies will have enough atomic weaponry to bomb more than a few cities, it not like the get hundreds of atomic bomb, just because the first bomb was made. The atomic bomb was effective against Japan because it was almost defeated, a triumphant Germany, ruler of Europe will be in a entire different situation, than Japan making ready the last line of defense, already discussing surrender.
 
Lets face it is Moscow falls in 1941 due to a quick German assault then the Russians face a difficult position. The Germans will has cut the Russians ability to move forces from one region to another. The Fall of Moscow will be a great morale blow to the Russian and would really weaken Stalin's control of the USSR. In fact he might face the possibility of a coup by the Red Army or the leader of the Secret Police. If Moscow falls early enough German forces could also crush the Russians in the Ukraine.

It also makes it possible that the Finns might be more than willing to make more of an effort to secure Leningrad and Murmask. There is a stronger possibility that internal struggles within the Russian government might allow the war in the east to be finished in 1942.
 
Lets face it is Moscow falls in 1941 due to a quick German assault then the Russians face a difficult position. The Germans will has cut the Russians ability to move forces from one region to another. The Fall of Moscow will be a great morale blow to the Russian and would really weaken Stalin's control of the USSR. In fact he might face the possibility of a coup by the Red Army or the leader of the Secret Police. If Moscow falls early enough German forces could also crush the Russians in the Ukraine.

It also makes it possible that the Finns might be more than willing to make more of an effort to secure Leningrad and Murmask. There is a stronger possibility that internal struggles within the Russian government might allow the war in the east to be finished in 1942.

No the Red Army know they cant lose this war or it'll be the end of Russia, a coup would the worst thing they could do. Also Stalin had already killed anyboby able to start a coup those who remain cant get rid of him. Stalin isnt the sort of leader you can just 'topple'.

As I and others have said the Germans could fight their way into Moscow but they cant take it before the onset of winter or before the Soviet counterattack. OTL the Wehrmacht did about as well as it could in 1941, taking would need Moscow ABS.
 
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