German battleship in japan

ben0628

Banned
Early in the war? Yes. Middle of the war? Probably. Late in the war? They tried it with a u-boat, didn't work out. I believe there were German ships actively fighting in the Indian Ocean, but I could be wrong.
 
Early in the war? Yes. Middle of the war? Probably. Late in the war? They tried it with a u-boat, didn't work out. I believe there were German ships actively fighting in the Indian Ocean, but I could be wrong.


Doubtfull, given the problems of getting enough fuel to her whil on the ocean. Such a thing would require a very advanced level of logistics and supply ships send out in advance of the voyage of the warship itself. The operation of Bismarck in may 1941 was possibly the only time the Kriegsmarine did get the needed number of supportships at sea in advance of teh sortie, so it remains debatable. A lesser, much less demanding warship was more likely, as the HSK-4 (Thor) and several U-Boote proved.
 
Doubtfull, given the problems of getting enough fuel to her whil on the ocean. Such a thing would require a very advanced level of logistics and supply ships send out in advance of the voyage of the warship itself. The operation of Bismarck in may 1941 was possibly the only time the Kriegsmarine did get the needed number of supportships at sea in advance of teh sortie, so it remains debatable. A lesser, much less demanding warship was more likely, as the HSK-4 (Thor) and several U-Boote proved.

It may have been possible in the early part of the war (pre-Barbarossa) with the help of Russia.
Send the ship north around the Russian coast, refuelling as necessary.
 
It may have been possible in the early part of the war (pre-Barbarossa) with the help of Russia.
Send the ship north around the Russian coast, refuelling as necessary.

Also complicated: Germany at the start of WW2 had just 2 battleships, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, besides two ships rated as battleships, or actually "Linienschiffe", which were predating the Dreadnought in design. (Schliessen and Sleeswig Hollstein) Sending either Scharnhorst, or Gneisenau out was out of the question, as both were actually still working up to operational status. Bismarck and Tirpitz were still in the builders yard, so unavailble as well. These were the only battleships in the Kriegsmarine, unless you include the unbuild Z-Plan H class ships, which had just started.

More important: Why sending one of the few heavy units to a region where it could do nothing for Germany in any naval conflict?

The Atlantic was far more important (and still is) for warfare against the UK and this was the domain the Kriegsmarine was designed for to operate on. The Pacific and other backyard areas were illogical and served no purpose in any war against the UK. Strengthening the IJN was not an option as well, since the IJN already was the third largest navy in the world at the time, so did not need a German ship aiding her. (It would only serve to deplete their limmited fuelstock more quickly)
 

GarethC

Donor
In summer 1940 you can probably squeeze around to the north of Russia. Once the ice closes in, you can't, and then from July '41 you've got to worry about Soviet air, which probably makes that route impossible.

The sailing distance from Wilhelmshaven, through the Denmark Straits, around Cape Town, and then to Kure is near 16,000 nm, at a rough guess - more than twice the range of Scharnhorst, and triple that of Gneisenau. Bismarck and Tirpitz are a bit better off, but they will still probably need at least a second refuelling, and getting a supply ship out there where that will be needed is not that easy. There were 7 tankers prepositioned for Rheinubung, but they were hunted down afterwards and you've got a fairly narrow window while the fuel is available. Best bet is to try to get a tanker south of the Cape Verde islands, where one waited for Bismarck, then try to refuel in Vichy Madagascar if it hasn't been invaded yet, and then try to pass through the DEI somewhere. Scharnhorst has bunkerage for 6000 long tons of oil, and will burn most of that getting to the Cape Verdes. That would need all ten milchkuhe U-boats (if they haven't been sunk yet) to replace, and ten successive refuelling ops is begging for trouble, so it's going to have to be a surface ship.

The next challenge is rounding the Cape of Good Hope far enough south not to be seen by air patrols and have hunter forces guided to your position, while not getting too badly damaged by the weather.

Best not to port in Madagascar if there's another tanker that can bring the fuel to you - it would be embarrassing to meet the Indian Ocean squadron of the RN if a Free French sympathizer gets a message out that there's a honking great German warship anchored in sight of Antsiranana. You outclass an R-class battleship, but four of them is really a bit much.

Then you've got to transit the Malay Barrier. The problem is that there's a very good chance that a KNIL flying boat or submarine will put a torpedo in the side of a big target like a schlachtschiff, and then you are a very long way from help. Still, it's better to try to slip through the DEI well to the west of Singapore.

Once Japan conquers Malaya, Singapore, and the DEI, then maybe a Japanese tanker (and carrier group!) can come to cover you so that you don't have to rely on Vichy, which will significantly simplify the last leg.

However, having said all that, sustained operations from Kure or Truk need spares that just aren't available, because while you can run the one BB there if you try really hard, you can't keep sneaking merchant hulls full of parts and ammo via the same route. So unless you desire is for Tirpitz to flee Norway, then sit bored at a dockside until it goes to die bravely, nobly, and futilely alongside Yamato in Operation Ten-Go, it's really not a viable idea.
 
The Graf Spee did divert into the Indian Ocean in November 1939. At that point it had run up 30,000 nm since departing Germany & refueled,/resupplied at sea. So, technically it was possible.

Picture 1.png


The armed merchant raiders Pinguin-Aug 40, Komet-Dec 40, Orion & Komet-March 41, Atlantis-Aug 41, Kormoran Oct-41 all raided Australian waters. Others may have made it to the Pacific, but I'd have to check to confirm my notes.

In late 1942 the disguised cargo ship Ramses made it to the Pacific & swapped cargo in Indonesia. It was sunk shortly after departing Batavia on its return voyage. I dont have a list of cargo submarine voyages between Germany & Japan. Two Japanese efforts saw the submarines sunk on the return voyage & I think there were others attempted. A few German subs sucessfully made the round trip & several others sunk along the way. Last attempt was in mid 1945. The German sub was in the Atlantic when Germany surrendered. It went to a US port where 1,500 lbs of partially refined Uranium ore (Yellow cake) was found among the cargo.
 
Last edited:
The Graf Spee did divert into the Indian Ocean in November 1939. At that point it had run up 30,000 nm since departing Germany & refueled,/resupplied at sea. So, technically it was possible.

View attachment 284964

The armed merchant raiders Pinguin-Aug 40, Komet-Dec 40, Orion & Komet-March 41, Atlantis-Aug 41, Kormoran Oct-41 all raided Australian waters. Others may have made it to the Pacific, but I'd have to check to confirm my notes.

In late 1942 the disguised cargo ship Ramses made it to the Pacific & swapped cargo in Indonesia. It was sunk shortly after departing Batavia on its return voyage. I dont have a list of cargo submarine voyages between Germany & Japan. Two Japanese efforts saw the submarines sunk on the return voyage & I think there were others attempted. A few German subs sucessfully made the round trip & several others sunk along the way. Last attempt was in mid 1945. The German sub was in the Atlantic when Germany surrendered. It went to a US port where 1,500 lbs of partially refined Uranium ore (Yellow cake) was found among the cargo.

Merchant cruisers do have a very long range. In fact, a typical large merchant ship of 1939 had a longer range than a battleship - and that's before adding extra fuel tanks.
The problem for a BB is that while slower saves fuel, your a really obvious target while your creeping around.
 
How about Raeder gets info about that Hitler will invade Poland i July and understand that the UK might object and DOW shortly after and sends Gneisenau on a friendship cruise to Japan and tell them to bunker fuel in Spain, somewere in Brazil and then if they reach South Africa before the invasion ask nicely for a bit of fuel. They might get to DEI safe and bunker in Dutch waters and then head for Japan by the Philippines avoiding English waters. Or sail through the straights of Magellan, bunker in Chile and then head towards Hawaii and hope that USA sell them oil
 
Evidently my posts were obscure.

1. The Graf Spee was refueled at sea.

2. The Germans had no trouble getting cargo ships to the UK or the Pacific.

They don't need assorted port calls along the way. Three supply ship should be redundant enough.

It's not nearly as difficult to get a German warship to the Pacific as it might seem. There just does not seem to be much point to it. The Japanese don't need another undersized fuel hog. For German purposes the merchant raiders are more efficient & productive.
 
Evidently my posts were obscure.

1. The Graf Spee was refueled at sea.

2. The Germans had no trouble getting cargo ships to the UK or the Pacific.

They don't need assorted port calls along the way. Three supply ship should be redundant enough.

It's not nearly as difficult to get a German warship to the Pacific as it might seem. There just does not seem to be much point to it. The Japanese don't need another undersized fuel hog. For German purposes the merchant raiders are more efficient & productive.

Purpose build warships need more than average support, as they are normally not the most economical steamers and the fuel thirsty German high presure boilers certainly were known to consume vast amounts of fuel, so just three supplyships is possibly not making you get out of the Atlantic, let alone get into the Pacific. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau just had a bunkerage for 5,355 tons of fuel, providiong them a theoretical range of 9,020 NM at economical speed of 15 knots. Once they needed to go faster, the range drops significantly to about just some 3,000 NM at 24 knots, or a little over 1,500 NM at 30 knots. (If engines and boilers survived for longer durations of running at flank speed!)

Politically sending the Gneisenau, or Scharnhorst out before War started in september 1939 would indicate sending them out in a time politcal events already demanded these ships in hom,ewaters to prepare for war and complete their fitting out, as both were not fully equipped for operational uses. sending an incomplete ship is pointless and will be simmilar as sending it straight to the scrapyard, even before it is ready. More practically, both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau needed refits to enhance their operational usefulness, after trials had shown they were very poor in a seaway, due to their low hull profile and straight bow, demanding rebuilding these bows first with the "Atlantic Bow".
 
It may have been possible in the early part of the war (pre-Barbarossa) with the help of Russia.
Send the ship north around the Russian coast, refuelling as necessary.

use of Northern Sea Route was one of the reasons the KM wanted to keep collaboration with Soviets going, there was also planned repair and resupply base (or more accurately ship) somewhere in Pacific, for raiders and u-boats only though, never read any mention of capital ships.

as previous posts have said, what would be purpose of German warship?
 

Deleted member 1487

Evidently my posts were obscure.

1. The Graf Spee was refueled at sea.

2. The Germans had no trouble getting cargo ships to the UK or the Pacific.

They don't need assorted port calls along the way. Three supply ship should be redundant enough.

It's not nearly as difficult to get a German warship to the Pacific as it might seem. There just does not seem to be much point to it. The Japanese don't need another undersized fuel hog. For German purposes the merchant raiders are more efficient & productive.
The only concern was that the Graf Spee was having serious boiler issues, which prompted it's historically attempt to get home and fatal showdown with the British pursuers.
 
Even ignoring the literal army of logistical and tactical issues infesting the concept, at absolute best the German Battleship sits in a port in Japan till the end of the War, then is expended as a target during the Bikini tests. Or perhaps dies alongside Yamato in a fight to the death with the Iowas and their escorts, if we're feeling a bit romantic about the end of an age. Far, far more likely she runs afoul of a fast carrier task force and gives the Avenger and Helldiver pilots some practice.
 
OTL there were issues for Free French ships operating with the UK, and then also with the USA. Likewise for the Dutch ships. This was with full access to countries, especially after the USA was in, that could afford to custom make parts. Once any spares the German ship has run out, you need to custom make parts for anything not totally standard like a screw or a bolt. Ammunition is an issue, making ammo up to 20mm or 40mm for German weapons probably not too much of an issue but anything bigger than that becomes more difficult. OTL the Germans ran a small number of submarines based out of Penang I believe, and there were constant difficulties with parts, torpedoes, etc. The best that could be hoped for would be for the ship to get there before the war starts or shortly thereafter, use Japanese islands as needed for fuel, food, and water and raid British (and other) shipping in the Pacific. At some point the ship will be too low on ammo or suffering too many breakdowns. If before Pearl Harbor they can be interned in Japan and get home or go to some friendly South American country where they can "escape". They could even cut a deal with the Russians if before Barbarossa to be "interned" in Vladivostok and then shipped home - anything such as code machines or advanced radio equipment they don't want the Soviets to have could go overboard. Another way is to leave the ship in Japan and then be sent home via Russia. Once Barbarossa happens Russia is an enemy, and after Pearl Harbor trying to get to South America to be interned and "escape" becomes highly problematic.

While the above scenario is possible it requires the Kriegsmarine to decide that throwing away one of their "capital" ships and potentially all of its crew is worth the damage it would do as a Pacific raider as opposed to operating in the Atlantic or as part of a fleet in being. I don't think the math adds up, although there is propaganda value in having the RN, RAN, and RNZN tied up in the Pacific chasing this ship.
 
Come to think of it, I don't think in the entire history of German naval forces (~60 x BB/BC/PBS commissioned) that a German-built battleship has ever entered the Pacific. It wouldn't have been a shocker for a Deutschland class to visit Japan after the Anti-Comiterm Treaty was signed.

The closest I think they got to a heavy warship in the region was Prinz Eugen's visit to Bikini Atol.

fig2-13.jpg
 
Last edited:
Come to think of it, I don't think in the entire history of German naval forces (~60 x BB/BC/PBS commissioned) that a German-built battleship has ever entered the Pacific. It wouldn't have been a shocker for a Deutschland class to visit Japan after the Anti-Comiterm Treaty was signed.

The closest I think they got to a heavy warship in the region was Prinz Eugen's visit to Bikini Atol.
fig2-13.jpg

All four Brandenburg-class ships were in the pacific during the Boxer rebellion, Kaiser and König Albert also paid a visit to Chile pre WW1.
 
Top