German Army (Heer) 1930s sanity options

Deleted member 1487

I specifically mentioned Garand because the gas-trap was how the rifle started. Just as Garand saw the light, a more vigorous pursuit by Vollmer might have resulted in a similar epiphany.
At that point though you have to start over, because the basic design was a toss out. The Garand effectively had to redesign the rifle over a 12 year period and 4 additional years after being adopted. Plus given that the Vollmer required a caliber change and was complex and expensive to manufacture lends serious reasons not to adopt it. Now that said it should have been adapted to a shorter 7.92mm like a 7.92x40mm like CETME German ballisticians developed post-WW2, and was probably superior to the 'dog's breakfast' that was the G41 and 43 with additional work on it.
 
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At that point though you have to start over, because the basic design was a toss out. The Garand effectively had to redesign the rifle over a 12 year period and 4 additional years after being adopted.

Thus the "earlier" comment. Give it a decade instead of 4 years, and who knows where things might have gone?


a 7.92x40mm like CETME German ballisticians developed post-WW2
You mean the one with the aluminum cored bullets? That might be pushing too far.
 

Deleted member 1487

Thus the "earlier" comment. Give it a decade instead of 4 years, and who knows where things might have gone?
Did the Germans have that much time to redo the rifle? Starting over with those lessons seems a better option IMHO considering the caliber requirement of a shorter 7.92 to avoid major production change over with caliber shifts.

You mean the one with the aluminum cored bullets? That might be pushing too far.
No, just the measurements. Even excluding the aluminum the ballistic performance shouldn't be that far off of the longer round and significantly better at ranges of around 500-800m than the 33mm Kurz version. It was fine to 300m, but modern combat experience has shown that to be too little in more open conditions. Full auto wasn't desired by the Germans for assault rifles anyway, especially at that caliber, to help limit ammo usage, and with the full length round being too much a semi-auto rifle with solid performance out to about 600m is actually highly useful. A lower powered G3 rifle effectively.
 
In 1933 Goering ordered the formation of a special airborne unit of the police department for special duties like protecting high ranking Nazis, this unit was later expanded into the elite paratroopers. Goering could order a compact rifle be designed for these special troops and this could lead to the assault rifle or maybe an earlier version of the FG-42.
 
AFAIK the German Army's weapons were adequate to brilliant, but there weren't enough of them. Could more have been done between 1919 and 1939 to design weapons that were quick, easy and cheap to produce. The best example I can think of is bringing the MG42 forward so that it can be built in place of the MG34. I don't want the extra performance I want the ease of manufacture.

3 or 4 months ago I was don't some work on the organisation tables of the infantry divisions in September 1939. At that time there were 90 infantry divisions including 4 motorised, 35 first wave, the second wave, the third wave and 3 mountain divisions. There were many differences within the waves so that among the 90 divisions there must have been 20 to 30 variations.

AFIAK the variations were due to a shortage of standard German weapons, which forced them to use equipment that was inherited from the Austrians and Czechs. Some of that equipment was better than the German Army's but it must have been a logistical nightmare.

There is not much that can be done about the (IIRC) 35 divisions worth of Czech weapons. However, is the Austrian and German Armies maintaining friendly relations between 1919 and Anschluss allowed?

The idea is that they standardise their equipment and organisation so that when the Union of Austria and Germany is allowed the 30,000 man (IIRC) Army Austria was allowed and the 100,000 man Germany was allowed would join seamlessly. IIRC the Austrian Army had expanded to 8 divisions by Anschluss of which one became the 4th Light Division, 3 became 1st Wave regular infantry divisions, 2 became the 2nd and 3rd Mountain Divisions and the other 2 were broken up. Therefore only 6 of the 100-odd divisions in the German Army have standard equipment, but many small changes add up to one big change.
 
The fuel projections ate quite severe, so Hitler decides to harness massive strategic reserves of Oil (by far the simplest solution for a few Quick campaigns), to supplement synthetic fuels as OTL.
IIRC a majority voted to stay in Germany in the Silesian Plebiscite but the Entente Powers split in between Germany and Poland. This left a big German minority in Polish Silesia and a big Polish minority in the Rump of Germany.

Silesia didn't look as bad a loss of territory as Posen or West Prussia on a map, but it contained about a million tax payers and more importantly 25% of Germany's coal. An earlier recovery of Polish Silesia would provide the coal to make a lot of synthetic oil from. How could that be done? I don't know. The Poles would be very reluctant to give up most of their coal supply for a start.
 

Deleted member 1487

AFAIK the German Army's weapons were adequate to brilliant, but there weren't enough of them. Could more have been done between 1919 and 1939 to design weapons that were quick, easy and cheap to produce. The best example I can think of is bringing the MG42 forward so that it can be built in place of the MG34. I don't want the extra performance I want the ease of manufacture.
No reason it couldn't have been, it was designed by mass production expert without gun design experience. You just need a perceived need. The problem it had though was it was too fast and overheated too quickly. Double the weight of the recoil spring and that should solve the problem (that is what the MG3 did post-war).

3 or 4 months ago I was don't some work on the organisation tables of the infantry divisions in September 1939. At that time there were 90 infantry divisions including 4 motorised, 35 first wave, the second wave, the third wave and 3 mountain divisions. There were many differences within the waves so that among the 90 divisions there must have been 20 to 30 variations.

AFIAK the variations were due to a shortage of standard German weapons, which forced them to use equipment that was inherited from the Austrians and Czechs. Some of that equipment was better than the German Army's but it must have been a logistical nightmare.
Can't do anything with that when you're not done rearming and you've got a war on your hands

There is not much that can be done about the (IIRC) 35 divisions worth of Czech weapons. However, is the Austrian and German Armies maintaining friendly relations between 1919 and Anschluss allowed?
Nope, not once the Austro-Fascists are in power and know Hitler wants to annex them. They aren't going to be part of the equation and know it once Anschluss happens. Unless the Nazis take over from inside first that's not an option.

The idea is that they standardise their equipment and organisation so that when the Union of Austria and Germany is allowed the 30,000 man (IIRC) Army Austria was allowed and the 100,000 man Germany was allowed would join seamlessly. IIRC the Austrian Army had expanded to 8 divisions by Anschluss of which one became the 4th Light Division, 3 became 1st Wave regular infantry divisions, 2 became the 2nd and 3rd Mountain Divisions and the other 2 were broken up. Therefore only 6 of the 100-odd divisions in the German Army have standard equipment, but many small changes add up to one big change.
Just not going to happen due to Austrian manufacturing using different weapons since pre-WW1. They didn't have the money to change over to German systems, nor did they want to. The other issue is that once the Austro-German customs union fell apart due to French intervention in 1930-31 Austria was falling apart economically and fell to the Austro-Facists and to maintain their power they aligned with anyone other than the Germans to avoid being absorbed. Hence why they turned first to Mussolini in 1934, which saved them, and then tried to appeal to France in 1938, but were left in the lurch.
 
Can't do anything with that when you're not done rearming and you've got a war on your hands.
I thought you could if Germany's weapons were built in fewer man hours so that more could be made with the same money and manpower. Then less of the captured Austrian and Czech equipment would be needed to make up the difference. The surplus could be bartered with Germany's satellites in the Balkans for raw materials bolstering the Hungarian and Rumanian Armies in the process.
 

Deleted member 1487

I thought you could if your weapons were built in fewer man hours so that more could be made with the same money and manpower. Then less of the captured Austrian and Czech equipment would be needed to make up the difference. The surplus could be bartered with Germany's satellites in the Balkans for raw materials bolstering the Hungarian and Rumanian Armies in the process.
Small army built with few man hours helps, but is really only part of the equation. Artillery is a huge part of the firepower of a division and Czech artillery was irreplaceable.
 

Deleted member 1487

Out of interest, how likely was that?
Virtually impossible. Austrian Nazis launched a coup in 1934, assassinated the dictator, and still failed. Fun fact they have the couch the dictator, Engelbert Dollfuss, bled out on in a military museum and I got to see it. They also have a collection of WW1 trench close combat weapons which are terrifying to think of having been used on people.
 
Small army built with few man hours helps, but is really only part of the equation. Artillery is a huge part of the firepower of a division and Czech artillery was irreplaceable.
I've changed my post from "your" to "Germany's". I thought that going back to 1919 it could have been designed to be quick to produce to allow rapid expansion of the 100,000 man army at a future date such as an emergency or when the Treaty of Versailles was abolished.

But 7 infantry divisions with 36 field pieces (IIRC) to 100-odd divisions in 1939 with 48 field pieces (IIRC) six-and-a-half years later (c. 250 to c. 4,800) is admittedly a tall order as it requires an average production of 800 field pieces a year. But using mass production methods would make that easier to achieve.
 
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Deleted member 1487

I've changed my post from your to Germany's. I thought that going back to 1919 it could have been designed to be quick to produce to allow rapid expansion of the 100,000 man army at a future date such as an emergency or when the Treaty of Versailles was abolished.

But 7 infantry divisions with 36 field pieces (IIRC) to 100-odd divisions in 1939 with 48 field pieces (IIRC) six-and-a-half years later (c. 250 to c. 4,800) is admittedly a tall order as it requires an average production of 800 field pieces a year. But using mass production methods would make that easier to achieve.
Easier, but not necessarily possible in the time frame just because they shave off some manhours.
 
Just not going to happen due to Austrian manufacturing using different weapons since pre-WW1. They didn't have the money to change over to German systems, nor did they want to. The other issue is that once the Austro-German customs union fell apart due to French intervention in 1930-31 Austria was falling apart economically and fell to the Austro-Fascists and to maintain their power they aligned with anyone other than the Germans to avoid being absorbed. Hence why they turned first to Mussolini in 1934, which saved them, and then tried to appeal to France in 1938, but were left in the lurch.
That's a pity. I thought that I had a good idea there.

My impression was that in 1919 the vast majority of Austrians wanted Anschluss and so did most Germans. Although it was forbidden by the peace treaties the two governments would try to standardise as much as the letter of the peace treaties would allow to prepare the ground for union at a later date. Standardising the equipment of the armed forces would be a logical part of that policy.

Based on what you wrote above...

Austria and Czechoslovakia inherited equipment from the Hapsburg Army and maintaining that standardisation would have made sense to help them form a united front against a resurgent Germany.
 

Deleted member 1487

That's a pity. I thought that I had a good idea there.

My impression was that in 1919 the vast majority of Austrians wanted Anschluss and so did most Germans. Although it was forbidden by the peace treaties the two governments would try to standardise as much as the letter of the peace treaties would allow to prepare the ground for union at a later date. Standardising the equipment of the armed forces would be a logical part of that policy.

Based on what you wrote above...

Austria and Czechoslovakia inherited equipment from the Hapsburg Army and maintaining that standardisation would have made sense to help them form a united front against a resurgent Germany.
Not saying it's a bad idea, just not a panecea to achieve what you want. No one expected the Austrians to be so pro-Anschluss when it happened, Hitler initially planned to make it a puppet state like Slovakia, but with a German appointed dictator, but found the wild enthusiasm for the German army's move into the country so overwhelming that he could just annex it directly. A significant reason Anschluss wasn't opposed by Britain was due to how much the vast majority of Austrians wanted it. Even accounting for rigging of the 'vote' for Anschluss, they didn't need to rig it by much. That said the Austrian government was very anti-Hitler, so until they are overthrown by German invasion the public really didn't have a say in how things were going to go between Germany and Austria.

Also understand that the Austrians and Czechs hated each other more than they hated Germany, so don't plan on standardization there either. There was a LOT of hostility left over from the Habsburg era.
 
Virtually impossible. Austrian Nazis launched a coup in 1934, assassinated the dictator, and still failed. Fun fact they have the couch the dictator, Engelbert Dollfuss, bled out on in a military museum and I got to see it. They also have a collection of WW1 trench close combat weapons which are terrifying to think of having been used on people.
How about if the Austrian Nazis were told to hold back until Hitler had Mussolinis support. Then you might see an Anschluss in early 1936?
 
No one expected the Austrians to be so pro-Anschluss when it happened, Hitler initially planned to make it a puppet state like Slovakia, but with a German appointed dictator, but found the wild enthusiasm for the German army's move into the country so overwhelming that he could just annex it directly. A significant reason Anschluss wasn't opposed by Britain was due to how much the vast majority of Austrians wanted it. Even accounting for rigging of the 'vote' for Anschluss, they didn't need to rig it by much. That said the Austrian government was very anti-Hitler, so until they are overthrown by German invasion the public really didn't have a say in how things were going to go between Germany and Austria.
Do you know what the popular mood in Austria was at the time of the Dollfuss Affair? Could it have sparked mass demonstrations of ordinary Austrians carrying placards containing the slogan Anschluss Jetz! Could that have overridden the Austro-Nationalists, Austro-Fascists and Mussolini?
 
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Deleted member 1487

Do you know what the popular mood in Austria was at the time of the Dollfuss Affair? Could it have sparked mass demonstrations of ordinary Austrians carrying placards containing the slogan Anschluss Jetz! Could have overridden the Austro-Nationalists, Austro-Fascists and Mussolini?
I don't think that info exists. The Austrians already had made their wishes known, I don't think they anticipated it ever being possible given the international situation stopping them ever time something was tried. They'd support it if it happened, but weren't going to make it happen.
 
Some steps to take in the thirties, many have been mentioned before:

1930

-Have some accidents happen to this weird mustachioed Austrian and his friends.

-Point with alarm to the Soviets.

-Start to motorize the Versaille treaty(VT) authorized divisions, but no Armoured Cars as that was illegal under VT. Standardize the trucks & loose the horses.

-Use the new purchasing policies no more Cost +.

-Start experimenting with rocket art. not mentioned in VT.

-Start work on improving the equipment of the troops, things like camo, tents, radio's and first aid kits.

-Start a research program for new firearms, rifles, pistols, MP's, and machineguns.

-Dump the secret cooperative agreement with USSR, replace with similar agreement with China and/or Finland & Sweden. Still illegal but at least it won't bite you in the ass in 11 years.

-Force an upgrade on the rail, road, and water infrastructure networks. Make them job programs, with the high unemployment this is gold. Also start mass-producing new locomotives and riverboats.

-Have Austria annex Germany, only the reverse was blocked by the Paris Peace Treaties(PPT)(yes I have read art 88). This is very difficult but totally awesome diplomatic move. ie have referenda in Germany approving the annexation by Austria. I think this is the time to do it as everyone is distracted by the depression.

-Start a proper geological survey of Germany/Austria. Force through a profitable minimum purchase price and guarantee of purchase on strategic resources mined in Germany/Austria. Sell it as an other jobs program.

1931

-Silence Carl von Ossietzky

-Mechanize the Pioneer company's, think bulldozers, digging machines, bridging equipment, and railway laying equipment all on tracks. Assign them to the infrastructure program. But remember no armour on these vehicles. Add civilian construction companies with remarkable resemblance to the Heer construction units.

-Start work on new artillery r&d.

-Start working on AC, Pz., ShützPz. & JägdPz. vehicle designs.

-Start work on proper encryption & decryption, and communication protocols.

-Start up the sniper school

-Start up the jäger schools both mountain and regular.

-Send the first group of "tourists" to China.

1932

-Do the staff work for expansion from PPT size (15 divisions) to 100+ divisions.

1933

-The new firearms and field equipment should now be at production prototype stage. Freeze the models when ready and start mass production.

-Start building the barracks and training facilities for an expanded army.

1935

-Ditch the PPT size limitations like OTL, but make all new divisions motorized and at first only regulars, if for shorter terms than under the VT. So 36 mot.inf. divisions now.
-Start production of armoured cars.

-Train the new inductees to become corporals as opposed to the Reichwehr men who were trained to be sergeants+.

-Win the Saarland plebiscite like OTL.

-Tell the KM that even thinking about breaking or cheating the new AGNA will result in them having a torpedo shoved up their asses and there will be no lube.

1936

-Reoccupy the Rhineland.

-Freeze and start production of Pz., SchützPz., and Jägdpanzer. A medium Pz. Mark IV look alike with sloped armour and two types of turret/gun, an long barrelled AT and a short barrelled HE. And a light Pz. something alike the Pz. II but somewhat larger, with both the SchützPz. & Jägdpanzer to utilize the same chassis and parts. If at all possible have the Jägdpanzer use the same ammo as the AT mark IV.

-Sell and or licence the Jägdpanzer PzII+ and other defensive arms to the smaller neutrals.

-Freeze and start production of artillery.

-An expedition to Spain might sound good, but its better if you just fight the commies in China.

1937

-Start conscription.

-New divisions won’t be motorized because of fuel concern, but if at all possible make them semi-motorized.

-Start upgrading some of the Mot. Inf. Div. to Pz. Div. as equipment becomes available.

-Make sure that the FJ are under Heer command.

1938

-Sudetenland including the Skoda factories but not the rest. While the addition of the Czech army’s equipment would be nice, the better production should allow you to equip your divisions. Have Poland and Hungary gang up on the remnants to take the PR blame instead of you.

-Not taking the rest of the Czech lands might give you the last freebee to take Danzig and Silesia instead.

1939

-Join the international coalition to attack the dastardly Italians. Take back any Germanic lands but stay away from the Adriatic coast.

-Don’t declare war on Poland, France, UK, NL, BE, DE and Nor.

-Ask for your African colonies back as the allied occupiers are screwing over your people.

-Send massive supplies and volunteers to Finland if the Soviets invade.

-Organize a defensive alliance in eastern Europe against the Soviets.


For extra bonus points and lolz:

-Secretly encourage Italian military adventures in the Balkans.

-In the event of having some extra cash, accept the offer to buy back the 3 districts from Belgium. Just to see if Paris can self-combust and go all crazy on Belgium.

-Then offer Italy the same deal for lower Tirol, and watch as the Italian political scene goes bonkers. Between the greed and national pride I doubt they will ever manage to make a decision.
 
Don't rush upgrades onto armoured vehicles as soon as conceived. Introduce at a more measured pace to simplify production and maintenance. Simplify production and maintenance.
 
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