German amphibious preparations observed 1939?

CalBear

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This is perhaps a bit sharp.
Thanks for explaining the resentment of the shipbuilding post. Although I did take the advice received. I am oddly enough not into this for popularity and contributions are voluntary. BTW,I would not personally blame anyone for not sticking to my advice.

Oh, you SO do not get it.

You are, to be kind, transparent.

Do your own research.
 
There's also the minor problem that every 200 tons of steel that goes into a MFP is basically 10 fewer Panzer Mk. IIIs... and 30 fewer engines.

So 700 MFPs (for example) is basically half the entire German Panzer Mk. III production (so they produce a total of 7000, rather than 15,000, at least in terms of steel), and they're also down the equivalent of 2100 truck engines.

Which might have some "small" impact on the German army's capabilities for moble warfare in this period, but oh well...

Other than that, it's a great plan.;)

Best,

My understanding (based only on a few minutes of internet searching, so I may be wrong..) is that they were made of steel but some versions featured concrete armor. Apparently they were originally supposed to be welded but due to a lack of qualified welders they were largely riveted.

I still have not found out how much is quality steel. Guess its not much as The Italians managed to complete 65 for Hercules in 3 months all together.
 
For another TL (see signature) the subject of Germany acquiring the capacity for amphibious landings have come up, but may have more general interest.

Lets assume that Germany acquires some level of amphibious landing capacity after the annexation of Czechoslovakia. They build the Marinefährprame of OTL. After the war over Poland they really expand this building and this is noticed.
What would Britain do about it?
Concentrate on defending the other side of the channel coast as OTL?
Advocate the move to a more northern defensive line in Benelux when the time arrives?
Build coastal defenses and face the French criticism that they are prepared to abandon Europe?


Welp, first things first the plans happen to fall out the pocket of Admiral Canaris, because he trusts Hitler about as much as a chocolate teapot.
Second thing is that once news breaks then all of Germany's neighbours start asking why the hell Hitler needs so much sealift capacity, given that Germany's only overseas holding (so to speak) in 1939 is Heligoland. Hear that sound? That's the sound of suspicion overcoming inertia and creeping up on neutrality and preparing to bludgeon it to death.
Result: naval expenditure in a lot of navies increases more than a little. Butterflies flap.
I would write more but I think that Steamboy's post caused me to pull a muscle in my chest from laughing so hard.
 

CalBear

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True but we've got to factor in the OP here and his "OH JAH HITLER SENPAI!" 'release' which has made the Allies be almost uniformly retarded whilst the Germans are producing beyond the means of their econimy to work by the magic of NaziCoal which somehow solves all the issues.

The simple thing is that this would not be spotted in 39, unless the WAllies were full on window licking spastics and that Canaris had somehow had a change of heart and mind and was the most ferverent Nazi EVER. Like, more Nazi than a dozen Hitlers condesed into one. Considering how leaky the German 'intelligence' agency was in OTL this would need to be completely overhauled and made not full of nazi/hitler haters who were actively collaborating with the British.
This would be spotted earlier by anyone competent. But going off the OP's "On der Furhers face" wank, the British are spinless retards, the French are seemingly literally this

french-stereotype.jpg

Just add a ring of garlic and a black/dark blue bicycle and we'd be golden.

Zuit allore'ing all over the place without doing anything but cowering behind the Maginot line whilst Hitler openly builds up his armed forces and breaks EVERY treaty there is and the Anglo-French and everyone are like;

"Daawwww Mr Hitler, you're just a nice friendly man ain't you. We trust you utterly, and take your word for everything because you're a good, honest person."

If this gets spotted in 1939 in your TL OP, then its too late, Sealion IS going ahead, the RN will conduct a mass scuttling the day the war breaks out and Ovaron will smile down upon you, see your works and judge it to be good. But this thread is probably just you gathering information which you can then cherry pick your data from as you do in your main post so you can somehow make Sealion work, so crack on, what ever gets said here that is in any negative light will just be ignored or turned into 'Oh so it CAN work because of *insert massively extenuating circumstances that you've got as close to absolute zero chance of happening in real life but will happen in your TL Here*.

Basically the problem with your TL is that you've got the Nazi's pulling steel out of their arses and sodomizing absolutely every treaty (as well what happened in Spain) and developing and advancing with foresight that indicates that they've got Wikipedia as well as a huge amount of technical data somehow.

But they are operating in some kind of magical wank-bubble, where they do all this AMAZING (and terrifying) stuff, but outside the bubble, the rest of the world plods along as per OTL and basically does NOTHING different and reacts exactly the same way when they simply would not. Its no wonder that people are not taking your TL seriously, despite the amount of work you're putting into it, its just a wank that's trying to pass itself off as something very serious. You can dress a dog up in a lab coat but that does not make it a scientist. You can dress this wank of yours up as something serious, but that don't mean it is.

doing-science-photo-u1.jpg
Don't.

I understand your feelings regarding the main T/L. That is not license to troll this thread or any other.

If anything it weakens your critique.
 
Overall, thanks for the comments. Maybe it got a bit to heated.

The perspective was to get the opinions on a new threat assessment. As it happens, the expected analysis of the motives were the dominating driver of the motives, and overall we can conclude it would be an extremely risky endeavor politically.

We see divergent points on the military consequences. Would Britain at all see this as a threat to them and I would also propose that threat of invasion in Scandinavia could make the Scandinavian countries even more compliant. To avoid invasion the neutral way.

The extreme political risk was nevertheless the dominating opinion, and I'll take this with me for the TL I am writing on (see post 1).

Thanks,
 

TFSmith121

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There is a concept called "opportunity cost" you

I still have not found out how much is quality steel. Guess its not much as The Italians managed to complete 65 for Hercules in 3 months all together.


There is a concept called "opportunity cost" you may wish to look into; steel, shipyard labor, engines, man hours, all come from somewhere.;)

No such thing as a free lunch, essentially.

Best,
 
Personally I think the biggest cost for Germany is that by Sept 1940 the drive to use them will be unstoppable "you have built an amphibious capability and now you don't want to use it !".

The problem is that even 700 ships is really only 700 small slow targets that get destroyed in a very costly sea battle for both sides but RN will survive it much better than KM so adding in the loss of elite troops and the propaganda value the Allies (GB+) comes out massively better. With the total destruction of the surface fleet convoying to USSR is easier and a larger % of ships can be moved to Med so not sure it really hurts them much to lose a few R class and escorts.
RN did not become critically short of ships (except maybe for convoy escort) until IJN entry and at point USN joins in....
 
That is true. But they may come cheap though...

Okay, humor us. How? How is the resource for this going to come cheap, and no they are not going to be built of concrete. They are going to be steel and wood with SOME concrete protection.

Is it going to be the wonder of Nazicoal which through the power of das ubermensch who have figured out alchemy can be converted into steel? Maybe they are using their sudden love of the jews to have them become part of the project. Literally. taking the iron out of their blood and making that into guns and armour? Maybe its the power of wishful thinking and Imag-i-naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashion...
So what is it?

The nazi's are building up a massive fleet, a large airforce and army, all without a hint of strain.

Gonna guess that the Retarded Allies are going "Bwuuuuuuhh...lets not sell them our steel, lets give it to them for free, seeing as that Hitler fellow's so trustworthy..." Before returning to trying to see what orificies cucumbers will fit in whilst guzzling lead?

So please, enlighten us, how is this being built? Because you simply CAN'T have all this massive build up of tanks, planes, ships, subs and landing craft that are there to TOTALLY move the German army around the lovely beaches of the Baltic Sea and help with fishing...somehow... and not be running out of resources, money and manpower to build it all.
 
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Personally I think the biggest cost for Germany is that by Sept 1940 the drive to use them will be unstoppable "you have built an amphibious capability and now you don't want to use it !".

The problem is that even 700 ships is really only 700 small slow targets that get destroyed in a very costly sea battle for both sides but RN will survive it much better than KM so adding in the loss of elite troops and the propaganda value the Allies (GB+) comes out massively better. With the total destruction of the surface fleet convoying to USSR is easier and a larger % of ships can be moved to Med so not sure it really hurts them much to lose a few R class and escorts.
RN did not become critically short of ships (except maybe for convoy escort) until IJN entry and at point USN joins in....

Yes, simply adding this to OTL would probably have these detrimental effects. I was mostly posing the question out of curiosity of the effects outside Germany because this would be relevant for most POD's leading to Germany making or thinking about making amphibious ships.
 
Overall, thanks for the comments. Maybe it got a bit to heated.

The extreme political risk was nevertheless the dominating opinion, and I'll take this with me for the TL I am writing on (see post 1).

Thanks,

Okay, humor us. How? How is the resource for this going to come cheap, and no they are not going to be built of concrete. They are going to be steel and wood with SOME concrete protection.

Is it going to be the wonder of Nazicoal which through the power of das ubermensch who have figured out alchemy can be converted into steel?

The nazi's are building up a massive fleet, a large airforce and army, all without a hint of strain.

Gonna guess that the Retarded Allies are going "Bwuuuuuuhh...lets not sell them our steel, lets give it to them for free, seeing as that Hitler fellow's so trustworthy..." Before returning to trying to see what orificies cucumbers will fit in whilst guzzling lead?

So please, enlighten us, how is this being built?

Not the main point here. Sorry. That will be context dependent. Having said that, this is not Wotan hart steel. Its not necessarily the same steel as for tanks, but rather the kind of steel used in fortification. And a minute amount in comparison.
 
Not the main point here. Sorry. That will be context dependent. Having said that, this is not Wotan hart steel. Its not necessarily the same steel as for tanks, but rather the kind of steel used in fortification. And a minute amount in comparison.

Indeed the main point is people justifying your skewed view on logistics and doing your research for you. Also nice way to dodge the question because where do you think Wotan steel comes from? The same place as normal steel and the kind used in fortifications and that used in tanks. Its the same thing, one's just treated differently.

Wotan is not this amazing ore that glows softly with the warm light of National Socialism and when mined starts somehow belting out random chunks of the Neurenburg Address by Hitler.
Its iron ore, that is then processed and treated and turned into steel. Wotan is not a separate thing. So all this steel is coming from the same place. Iron Ore.

And where are the Nazi's getting all the iron ore to get this massive level of production? They have not conquered anywhere yet, unless the Swedes are giving them every single gram of ore they mine up that still won't cover it. So again, where is it coming from? How is this being made?

Seriously we get it, you want the Nazi's to win and NOTHING is gonna change that but why not just go 'fuck it!' and throw in the Society of Thule and give them evil wizards and magitech, that would be more interesting than this.
 
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