German-American War of 1889

German-American War of 1889 starting in Samoa

http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/bbc.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cdferree/history/clash.htm

Less relevant :-
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2082/is_n3_v60/ai_20649396
since in 1889 Mahan hasn't even published his book yet, but it might give some pointers

If we assume for this that the POD is that the Germans and US fight a battle before the hurricaine sweeps in and annihilates the victors, then the two nations would be at war from March 1889

How is this going to be fought ?

Grey Wolf
 
By the way, if you want to look at the possible result of the initial battle, then the scaramouche link contains the following pages about the US and German warships :-

http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/olga.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/adler.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/eber.htm
for the Germans

and
http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/trenton.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/vandalia.htm
http://homepages.tesco.net/scaramouche/nipsic.htm
for the Americans

Grey Wolf
 
Just exactly how will there be opportunity for fighting?

The germans likely have a formidable Army at this time, but if the United States doesn't invade Germany near Hamburg (very funny that idea) I fail to see how either side can come to grips!

The USN really doesn't exist in 1889, but then, neither does the kreigsmarine! I seriously fail to see how the Germans are going to project force across the Atlantic, and that if they did, how they could sustain a force large enough to sieze and hold very much ground in North America!

As for fighting in Samoa, that is on the far side of the world for both parties. At that time, I doubt either could maintain so much as a regiment there! Big deal!

I DO feel that a "war with Germany" in 1889 WOULD tend to stir things up in the US Congress, Just about the time this war happens, the US Congress is going to notice how little prepared the United States is for any sort of war more complicated than fighting the plains Indians, so---I'd imagine that both the Army and especially the Navy would get surprising amounts of new funding.

There would be a rather sudden expansion of the standing US Army, to the point that the effects of a raiding party of invading Germans could be dealt with, and that efforts to creat an ocean going navy of 1st class battleships would go into high gear.

While I'm not 100% sure how extensive Germany's fleet was during this period, I am reasonably sure that it too was pretty small, so it becomes a building race! In the event of an all out naval building race, wouldn't the Germans come under the immediate notice of other neighbors, closer to home than say New York City, whom could be counted on to object? I suppose that a serious effort on the part of the USA to also build a Navy might be viewed through some jaundiced British eyes as well, but would a USA with a large Navy be viewed with the same amount of consternation as would a GERMANY with a large navy? Probably not!

So, to recap things, we find that the Germans are unable to project military force across the Atlantic and the USA is likewise unable to do the same! Both sides are building new warships at a frantic pace, and there is a very small "battle" in Samoa!
 
Snip

So, to recap things, we find that the Germans are unable to project military force across the Atlantic and the USA is likewise unable to do the same! Both sides are building new warships at a frantic pace, and there is a very small "battle" in Samoa!

So basically You have Germany and the USA yelling at each other for several years as they have very minor single ship battles, and try to build an actual navy.
All of the prestige Germany got from defeating France would go down very quickly, and the Americans would be seen as incompetent business men.
Wow that could cause a lot of interesting political butterflies.
 

Germaniac

Donor
The Germans might use the chance to take some islands in the Caribbean and if it plays its cards right concessions in Venezuela. Germany will likely speed up the Brandenburg class and will have a more capable navy by 1891-2 Who knows if the congress tip toes around the Germans might get a couple Caribbean islands to relax at.
 
But which islands? At that time, the US had no Caribbean posessions. The Virgin Islands were still Danish, and Puerto Rico was still owned by Spain. Other islands were claimed by Holland, France and Britain. Haiti and The Dominican Republic are independant. So if a seriously pissed off Germany decides, for instance, to grab the Virgins just because it just wants to throw its weight around, there is not much the Danes can do except protest, but wouldn't that make the Monroe Doctrine kick in; never mind the weak state of the US navy? Plus, it is unlikely the British will be very happy about this, and their navy is anything but weak.
The Germans might use the chance to take some islands in the Caribbean and if it plays its cards right concessions in Venezuela. Germany will likely speed up the Brandenburg class and will have a more capable navy by 1891-2 Who knows if the congress tip toes around the Germans might get a couple Caribbean islands to relax at.
 
so basicaly the war would pertty much consist of a few minor ship to ship battles with lots and lots of hate mail being sent between the german and USA embacy's and a large scale flame war in various news papers :D
 
One obvious possibility is France seeing an opening and selling arms to the US or even embarking on some joint projects.

And if the US builds a much larger navy while Germany does the same AND goes poking into the Caribbean or Venezuela then the UK is going to become...irate.
 
Bad for the USA

This could be very bad for the USA. Neither side has much of a fleet, but the USA is very dependent on its merchant marine. Small, hastily armed ships can be effective commerce raiders..and drive een American goods into foreign hulls.

On a longer term note, it could draw the USA into the European alliance system, as Congress and the people realize how vulnerable the US is--or it could lead to isolationism rearing its head--but an armed isolation--heavily armed.
 
If memory serves the 1880's were the start of a modernization drive in the US Navy. I believe a similar event was taking place in Germany and deteriorating relations might hasten both. The question is though; What is going to set the US and Germany so at odds that they are going to dedicate significant resources to fight a war with an enemy on the other side of the Atlantic? It took quite a bit to hook the US into WWs 1&2 after the war had revved up. What is going to bring them in from a standstill? A Maine type event?
 
This could be very bad for the USA. Neither side has much of a fleet, but the USA is very dependent on its merchant marine.


NHBL,

Which effectively ceased to exist after the US Civil War. In this period as now, most of the goods traveling to or from the US were in foreign bottoms.

Small, hastily armed ships can be effective commerce raiders..and drive een American goods into foreign hulls.

Which again occurred during the Civil War with no real consequences.

Both sides in this "war" would be somewhat vulnerable to commerce raiding but, seeing how the Declaration of London is going to be observed - by Germany because she signed it and by the US because she recently and successfully sued Britain over it's provisions - neither side is going to be ab;e to touch goods aboard 3rd party hulls.

The idea of "continuous voyage" won't appear until WW1 and neither the US or Germany has the geographical position to intercept and inspect all vessels heading for the other.

This "war" is over within months of it starting. Both sides cannot get at each other, the rest of Europe will step in as mediators, and the battle at Samoa will be written off as unfortunate actions by hot-headed local commanders.


Bill
 
The US would be shaken badly by a conflict as it would expose the out dated military system and antiquated weapons still in use. The US would scramble to acquire modern weapons and ships and in 1889 the US would turn to the non-hostile nations of Europe for the modern weapons and ships it needs. But all in all the war would be very very short but have huge far reaching consequences and implications.

So in such a situation I believe the US would by the licenses to domestically produce European desinged weapons and vessels as well as purchase them directly. I think this would cause a major military expansion and reform propelling the US onto the world stage. The Germans would use this as an excuse to build a larger navy because as of 1889 the German navy is equal inadiquate as the US navy so really other than a few very very tiny engagments if any at all there will be no real military action.

The French would warm up to the US real fast in order to try and create an ally that would support France in latter conflicts. Britian would not be happy as they would most likely see it as the Germans using the conflict as an excuse to expand its navy to rival theirs. Also they would be very upest with the idea of a militarily powerful America, I do think Britian would look not only to sell modern weapons and vessels to the US but alos to warm ties with America as well in order to prevent any latter clashes between the two nations.

So if you think about it, an America hostile to the Germans pre-WWI would be interesting. Also an America that seeks to assert its self as a military power would also throw the worlds balance of power out of wack.

Well hot damn that would be an interesting time line in which the Germans might come off for the worse in the long run.
 
Snip
The French would warm up to the US real fast in order to try and create an ally that would support France in latter conflicts. Britian would not be happy as they would most likely see it as the Germans using the conflict as an excuse to expand its navy to rival theirs. Also they would be very upest with the idea of a militarily powerful America, I do think Britian would look not only to sell modern weapons and vessels to the US but alos to warm ties with America as well in order to prevent any latter clashes between the two nations.
Snip
Or Britain seeing the US gearing up for war and possibly (likely?) with help and support from France, may decide it needs to counter this growing threat.
At this time Britain wasn't friendly with France or the US due to colonies in Africa and South America respectively. Britain didn't want to fight either of them, but they were extremely cautious around them. Germany was seen mainly as a potentially dangerous upstart that deserved watching.
In OTL the US came close to war in the 1890's over problems between Britain and Venezuela. If this happens in TTL than Britain may decide to support Germany. Especially if Germany politely asks for British support. It wasn't until Germany built up its navy basically with the expressed intent on rivaling Britain that the British decided to become friendly with France. For a long time Britain wasn't willing to support either side.
So if Germany played its cards right there could be a French-American Alliance, and a British-German Agreement (Britain at the time being unwilling to become a full ally with any other country until its balls were to the wall.) Britain could supply the majority of the Navy with Germany agreeing to a subordinate role on the oceans, and Germany builds up the massive military it knows and loves with British support. Britain would also support Germany getting a few more African and Asian colonies.
The next war would be anything but a shouting match.
 
The US would be shaken badly by a conflict as it would expose the out dated military system and antiquated weapons still in use.


BTA,

Just how would a clash at Samoa expose the "out dated military system and antiquated weapons"? Did you even bother to look at the ships involved?

USS Trenton is a 3000+ ton steam frigate built in the 1870s and USS Vandalia is a 2000+ ton steam sloop built in the same period. While USS Nipsic is a smaller Civil War gunboat, the three Imperial German ships are of her size or less. The US frigate and sloop are 3 to 4 times the size of the German gunboats, are about the same age as the German gunboats, and are armed better than the German gunboats. No "out-dated" systems and "antiquated" weapons there.

As for the rest of this farcical war, it's impossible for the US and Germany to get at each other. Germany isn't going to be landing troops on the East Coast and the Us isn't going to be invading Hamburg. There is going to be little else than clashes between single ships or small groups of ships around the globe until some mediation takes place by a third power.

Given the nature of this "war" and it's short length, nothing is going to be learned from it.


Bill
 
Or Britain seeing the US gearing up for war and possibly (likely?) with help and support from France, may decide it needs to counter this growing threat.

Exactly my first thought. The UK have not been pushed into a corner by post-Bismarck bungled diplomacy so I feel that anything resembling an alliance with the US would have to be countered with support (quiet) for Germany. I can't see the American public being willing to enter a full alliance with France but a limited yet highly publicized outlander war with Germany might create just the atmosphere for such a change in US policy. And France is the perfect candidate to entertain such ideas with in the spirit of de Lafayette and France being a 'republic'. It's certain that such a conflict between Germany and the US are going to force both into restructuring their navies and naval forces. Such events are going to have Britain's full attention. Again, looking at the postwar situation in light of French overtures and possible talks of coalitions and something that looks like the beginnings of an alliance. Such events are going to have the effect of the British at least attempting to counter the French in Europe. First simple support in colonial ventures, then in naval areas, and perhaps finally delving into a relationship that follows/mimics the ATL French-American (Russian) group by 1900. Russia's role can only be helped by her perceived good will during the ACW too. Or perhaps a more 'heated' outcome earlier in an interesting Fashoda incident spark?


So if Germany played its cards right there could be a French-American Alliance, and a British-German Agreement (Britain at the time being unwilling to become a full ally with any other country until its balls were to the wall.) Britain could supply the majority of the Navy with Germany agreeing to a subordinate role on the oceans, and Germany builds up the massive military it knows and loves with British support. Britain would also support Germany getting a few more African and Asian colonies.

Agreed.

The next war would be anything but a shouting match.

I've worked on a timeline for years that was almost just this situation. Mine was a bit different in that it was an underdog alliance of France, America, Austria, Netherlands, Japan group struggling against a Russo-Anglo-German powerhouse. Still though ... your right, having the US involved and vested this early is very interesting. The American public are going to have to have something happen for them to be convinced of the need for such arrangements though ... I think someone mentioned some kind of Maine event or possible land battle that creates an atmosphere by which the government is forced to act.

As to the topic and war in question, I just see a lot of commerce raiding and some possible naval activity in the Pacific and over time possibly in the Atlantic. Perhaps the UK or Russia acting as a mediator to settle some lines on a map, ending the 'war' in a year or two tops.
 
I can easily see the British just sitting this one out. I don't find it likely that they will support the Germans in any way. The main obstacle is Canada and the British are going to be friendly to the Americans because of this.
 
I can easily see the British just sitting this one out. I don't find it likely that they will support the Germans in any way. The main obstacle is Canada and the British are going to be friendly to the Americans because of this.


Well I agree that I don't think the British are going to get involved in this conflict in any way except to perhaps mediate it's end. I do think they would be facing some decisions if it looked as if the 'war' created some kind of bond or lasting relationship or coalition with France (and thus Russia). I tend to think that could easily be a different train of events with Germany, but the Canada issues does have to be included in those discussions.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Well I agree that I don't think the British are going to get involved in this conflict in any way except to perhaps mediate it's end. I do think they would be facing some decisions if it looked as if the 'war' created some kind of bond or lasting relationship or coalition with France (and thus Russia). I tend to think that could easily be a different train of events with Germany, but the Canada issues does have to be included in those discussions.

The US have an army of 25,000 with 60 Field Guns (some ACW vintage), and a militia of less than 100,000 of whom nearly half have never undergone any military training or even held a rifle. Canada may very well be able to hold the US off even without the British:

Infantry: 18,000 US (inc. Arty acting as Inf) vs 4,000 Canadian
Cavalry: 5,000 US vs 1,000 Canadian
Arty: 60 US Antique pieces vs 18 modern Canadian pieces

The Canadian militia has a mobilisation strength of 3,500 cavalry, 90,000 infantry and 90 modern artillery pieces, besides some garrison arty etc.

In the 1880's, Canada outguns the US in any short war.
 
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