German airborne invasion of Britain

"If, instead, the force is immunized against failure gradually by way of smaller raids, then serious errors in doctrine, training and equipment are presumably exposed and corrected at far less cost."

I agree on that, battlefield testing is far more revealing than training ground exercices. I guess the key question is how many losses are you willing to risk in order to get your unit to peak efficiency?

"A massed drop on British radar stations could be one of them. Then again, you might find that such a raid destroys the airborne force while the RAF simply withdraws from battle until its radar chain is repaired and ready to resume operations. Now they have an air defense command and you don’t have a paratrooper corps."

Again, I don't disagree, and that outcome is a potential risk. If I was issuing the orders I think you have to ask yourself the question "is the potential benefit worth the risk of utter failure and loss of my elite paratroopers?". If you aren't sure, then cancel the operation.
 
It would be a hell of a lot more difficult to raid the main Chain Home stations Biting-wise than Würzburg stations since the transmitter and receivers were up on big towers.
 

Deleted member 1487

The heights are little issue, and believe me, there's going to be more than one aircraft in that group (not to mention the aircraft themselves aren't small), so chances are good you're going to get spotted.

Well the coverage looks fairly complete to me around the South East:
South West is were the vulnerability is and preparedness is less. It is vulnerable, so rip the hole there where there aren't nearly as many RAF airfields or fighters, so that when the fights occur, the LW is at an advantage and can bomb the fields to greater effect. That forces the RAF to fly form Southeastern fields to protect the South West and its coal, as well as the approaches to the intensely valuable and vulnerable Liverpool. There are a lot less Spitfires in 10 group. Not only that, but by forcing the British to defend 10 group from 11 or 12 group airfields, the linger time is going to be as bad or worse for the RAF as the LW. Plus they are forced to defend more places in an increasingly stretched force of limited means. Say if these raids are launched in August before the BoB really took off and the Germans still had their numerical advantage (in bombers, they were always outnumbered with fighters, but were still getting good kill ratios in July-early August), then the British will get worn down to a degree they weren't IOTL.

0-Map-Battle-of-Britain-Airfields-of-Britain-1940.jpg


For some reason this map doesn't show all of the LW airfields in Northwestern France. I cannot find a better one, like that in 'Most Dangerous Enemy".

Also, 30 miles would take between 10½ and 13 minutes (depending on whether you're going flat out, or sticking to cruising speed) for a Ju-52/3m ce, so the probability that they're going to miss you is, I'd have though, fairly small.

But you're also going to travel slower.
That's why you launch the raid at night. During the day is suicide. The speed then doesn't matter, especially if you are flying night raids, then Ju52s or He111s can hide in the mass of bombers headed to a target and the Observer Corps cannot tell the difference. FYI the He111 was also used as a glider tug, which can then better hide out in a group of He111 bombers.
Plus Chain Home is very indistinct as to types of aircraft or size, so tugging a glider shouldn't show up on the screen as a different aircraft.


For those stations that aren't more than a couple of miles inland, nor raised up on a cliff (at Beachy Head for example, the cliffs rise as high as 530 feet).
Mixed approach, some inserted by S-boat, some by glider or drop. All exfiltrate by S-boat where possible or land some Storchs after the mission succeeds.


I'm sorry, how are you supposed to keep bombers over enemy airspace when your ability to protect them will be limited?
After the raids knock out the British radar they cannot see the bombers coming, so either the British have to maintain CAP, which is very draining of their very limited resources during the BoB, or they scramble after the construction site has been bombed and try to shoot down the bombers after the fact. Either way the Germans gain.

It would be a hell of a lot more difficult to raid the main Chain Home stations Biting-wise than Würzburg stations since the transmitter and receivers were up on big towers.
Blow up the towers, not that hard. Also raid the controller stations and kill/capture the experienced crew. It took months before a radar team got proficient enough to report quickly enough to give fighters time to scramble and accurate enough to really matter as far as information about height or the size of the raid because of the inexactitude of the Chain Home system.
The Germans don't need to capture British radar, because at that time German Dipole systems were better in just about every way, so they just need to destroy them and kill the crews. Not hard when they blow the towers and have bombers fly in the next day and carpet bomb the area (or that night if the raiders mark the target with fires/flares.
 
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I guess the key question is how many losses are you willing to risk in order to get your unit to peak efficiency?
For me the key question is whether pinprick raids are reinforcing the concept of attempting deep operations or are voting against them? If you’ve tried 4 raids and all 4 have been smashing successes, then that means more raids at a higher tempo, even deeper. But if 3 out of 4 were spectacular failures, then the airborne tactic is probably bankrupt anyway so why worry about scaling it up to even more disasterous levels?
If I was issuing the orders I think you have to ask yourself the question "is the potential benefit worth the risk of utter failure and loss of my elite paratroopers?". If you aren't sure, then cancel the operation.
The paratroopers themselves are a dime a dozen; you can raid infantry formations to replace losses a hundred times over. It’s the transports that are the sensitive resource that have to be husbanded.
 
Also, to be honest, is it that difficult to defend against these raids? After the first one, all the UK needs to do is put the stations on alert and it's not going to be a surprise next time round. I assume they were already guarded to begin with, of course...
 
South West is were the vulnerability is and preparedness is less. It is vulnerable, so rip the hole there where there aren't nearly as many RAF airfields or fighters, so that when the fights occur, the LW is at an advantage and can bomb the fields to greater effect. That forces the RAF to fly form Southeastern fields to protect the South West and its coal, as well as the approaches to the intensely valuable and vulnerable Liverpool.
So you're giving up on any hope of wiping out the RAF, and are instead focussing on hitting a periphery?

There are a lot less Spitfires in 10 group. Not only that, but by forcing the British to defend 10 group from 11 or 12 group airfields, the linger time is going to be as bad or worse for the RAF as the LW. Plus they are forced to defend more places in an increasingly stretched force of limited means. Say if these raids are launched in August before the BoB really took off and the Germans still had their numerical advantage (in bombers, they were always outnumbered with fighters, but were still getting good kill ratios in July-early August), then the British will get worn down to a degree they weren't IOTL.
Except that you have to continually raid the area to make sure the radar stays down, and they you have to hope that No. 10 Group's sector isn't just written off for a time. Also, while you're bombing there, you aren't bombing other places.

That's why you launch the raid at night. During the day is suicide. The speed then doesn't matter, especially if you are flying night raids, then Ju52s or He111s can hide in the mass of bombers headed to a target and the Observer Corps cannot tell the difference. FYI the He111 was also used as a glider tug, which can then better hide out in a group of He111 bombers.
Hm, so a very large raid travelling at a very slow speed (for bombers)? Can you please tell me how that is not going to look like a parachute drop? In fact that tactic would be better used to make the British think it is a drop, and then have the bombers accelerate once they're over the coast.

Plus Chain Home is very indistinct as to types of aircraft or size, so tugging a glider shouldn't show up on the screen as a different aircraft.
That's going to make it look even bigger, which is going to put the British even more on alert.

Mixed approach, some inserted by S-boat, some by glider or drop. All exfiltrate by S-boat where possible or land some Storchs after the mission succeeds.
And you're doing this at what, dozens of site?

After the raids knock out the British radar they cannot see the bombers coming, so either the British have to maintain CAP, which is very draining of their very limited resources during the BoB, or they scramble after the construction site has been bombed and try to shoot down the bombers after the fact. Either way the Germans gain.
Except that they lose, since those bombers are not commited to nuisance raids against not-very-important sites, and thus can't be sent out to target actually important stuff like No. 11 Group's airfields.

Also raid the controller stations and kill/capture the experienced crew. It took months before a radar team got proficient enough to report quickly enough to give fighters time to scramble and accurate enough to really matter as far as information about height or the size of the raid because of the inexactitude of the Chain Home system.
Which is a contradictory statement, experienced operators will call in the height and size of the formation, as well as the low speed and bearing, while even inexperienced operators will at least call in the slow speed and approximate bearing.


The Germans don't need to capture British radar, because at that time German Dipole systems were better in just about every way, so they just need to destroy them and kill the crews.
The German system was pretty rare though, only about 8 sets were deployed. The British also managed to spoof the Germans even when the stations were down by sending out 'dead' signals from ground transmitters.

Not hard when they blow the towers and have bombers fly in the next day and carpet bomb the area (or that night if the raiders mark the target with fires/flares.
Can't do it at night due to fear of injuring/killing your own guys, and the British could (and almost certainly would) keep search planes aloft.
 
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After the raids knock out the British radar they cannot see the bombers coming, so either the British have to maintain CAP, which is very draining of their very limited resources during the BoB, or they scramble after the construction site has been bombed and try to shoot down the bombers after the fact. Either way the Germans gain.

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The Royal Observer Corp begs to differ. They were just as important as the radar system for the BoB.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Royal Observer Corp begs to differ. They were just as important as the radar system for the BoB.

They were useful once the battle went inland (though they were terrible at determining height, direction, and had some trouble with determining bombers vs. fighters. The radars were at the coast, so by knocking them down the ROC won't be able to see anything until the bombers reached spotting distance of the shore...assuming there isn't cloud cover. By that time it would take 6 minutes at very best from them reporting the sighting to that information reaching the airfields. And if the bombers are already within sight of land then they will be able to reach their targets and turn around before RAF fighters could even take off.

So you're giving up on any hope of wiping out the RAF, and are instead focussing on hitting a periphery?
No, I'm focusing the LW on the strategy they pursued IOTL: defeating the RAF in the air, not just bombing their airfields. By forcing the RAF to fight away from their airfields without the ability to tell when and where the LW was coming, they would be forced to maintain standing fighter patrols, which wears down men and machines, so that they cannot husband their strength for when the LW comes over to bomb. Plus it forces them to expend efforts in the West, away from the main theater in Southeastern Britain. The defender has to expend more resources to cover all the expose areas, unlike the attacker, who can choose when and where to attack and husband their strength for those efforts.

IOTL the RAF had the advantage of being able to not have to maintain air patrols because RADAR told them when an attack was coming and very roughly what size of raid it would be, so could pick and choose what to throw into the fight and when for maximum effect. They were also able to tell what were fighter sweeps and what weren't. Still even IOTL small units of bombers were able to sneak in and bomb unmolested in 'Pirateneinsätze'. Here the British cannot ignore any report of LW aircraft and need to muster their meager resources to scramble at the first sign of danger AND maintain patrols to cover exposed areas until RADAR signals are up. When they have to do that, they are losing fighting power both from having to maintain them, but also from the wear-and-tear on the pilots and machines, which IOTL were pretty hard pressed.

Except that you have to continually raid the area to make sure the radar stays down, and they you have to hope that No. 10 Group's sector isn't just written off for a time. Also, while you're bombing there, you aren't bombing other places.
The goal of the Battle of Britain was to draw Fighter Command into a battle in the air and destroy them in combat, not by bombing their airfields. By ripping a whole in the system and forcing 11 group to fight away from their airfields and having to maintain patrols to avoid just letting the Luftwaffe bomb Western Britain and 10 group's airfields, then they will be worn down quicker from constant stress both on men and machines, it will force them to react to the Germans more so than IOTL, when they could pick and choose when and where to fight and at the most favorable odds. The bombing isn't the goal, but rather to force Fighter Command to fight off balance and in an area where they cannot get RADAR notification and prepare the best defense. Without being able to tell when and where the LW is coming, they need to protect everything as often as they could.

Defend everywhere, strong nowhere.

Hm, so a very large raid travelling at a very slow speed (for bombers)? Can you please tell me how that is not going to look like a parachute drop? In fact that tactic would be better used to make the British think it is a drop, and then have the bombers accelerate once they're over the coast.
At night bombers generally traveled at slower speeds anyway, for the He111 no more than 168 mph, as 2 tons of bombs slowed down the aircraft, which was double the wait of the Ju52. Also the HE111 can and did pull gliders, so it won't be traveling at speeds too much below the usual cruise speed of the HE111 bombladen. When they were trying to pick up the Knickebein signal the HE111 also often traveled even slower than their cruise speed.


That's going to make it look even bigger, which is going to put the British even more on alert.
If it is in a bomber formation and size is seriously indistinct in Chain Home readings, how can they tell?

And you're doing this at what, dozens of site?
At most 6.

Except that they lose, since those bombers are not commited to nuisance raids against not-very-important sites, and thus can't be sent out to target actually important stuff like No. 11 Group's airfields.
The bombers then force 11 Group to maintain CAP over Southwest England and 10 Group's airfields', where they will be worn down from constant flying and won't be available for operations in Southeastern England. Small raids of bombers can swoop in and bomb RADAR construction sites, instead of bombing factories and cities like IOTL during the BoB instead, which is far more profitable. The RAF was much more worn down in air combat than bombing airfields, which were pretty dangerous for bombers, as they would have to travel further inland and be vulnerable for longer. The RADAR sites were near the coast, so by the time the bombers reach the target the lack of Radar warning means the bombers can tip and run, which IOTL in 1942-3 during the Baedecker raids the British had a very hard time defending against even with BETTER RADAR than in 1940.

Hitting coastal targets were the least dangerous mission for the LW throughout the war, as they were ready to turn and run for France and safety very quickly, while the inland missions like bombing airfields cost significantly more casualties. So the saved bombers will mean more aircraft for more missions for the LW. In a sense bombing the Radar sites pays for itself after a week or so, because the LW will have extra bombers that they didn't have IOTL that were killed earlier in the campaign bombing targets inland that here would survive here.

Also the RAF would be worn down from having to maintain fighter patrols until RADAR is brought back online, so the LW would have a better chance to shoot down tired pilots and will be confronting them on more favorable terms, especially without the benefits of the radar system given the defenders the ability to ensure that they had a superior number of fighters in the air battle.


Which is a contradictory statement, experienced operators will call in the height and size of the formation, as well as the low speed and bearing, while even inexperienced operators will at least call in the slow speed and approximate bearing.
Not really, as there were limits to the system, so even experienced operators were limited by the readings they were getting, which were less reliable than the German radar. Then within those less reliable readings, there was a gradient of experience that allowed them to properly evaluate the readings to get the most accurate report that the system of capable of.

So an inexperienced operator would give very bad readings over all, as they were twice handicapped by the poor readings of the system, plus their poor experience reading the reading, which meant that the final report was of limited use other than 'something is coming from x direction'.

The German system was pretty rare though, only about 8 sets were deployed. The British also managed to spoof the Germans even when the stations were down by sending out 'dead' signals from ground transmitters.
True. That would be somewhat of a problem, but with men on the ground confirming the system was destroyed, the Germans are more likely to see through the spoofing, rather than bombing the site from the air only and being unclear if they actually hit the target. A construction site if much larger and easier to disrupt than the radar towers once built, as they were surprisingly able to withstand any blast but a direct hit.

Can't do it at night due to fear of injuring/killing your own guys, and the British could (and almost certainly would) keep search planes aloft.
That's why you bomb it after they leave. Come on, give me some credit, rather than taking the most ludicrous ad hominem read.

Search planes would also only see targets after they were already approaching, which would still mean several minutes to get the information to the nearest airfield and several more minutes to get planes in the air and to the site, by which time the bombings would be over and the bombers already running for home. CAP with fighters is the only way to ensure the sites are protected once there is a gap in coverage.
 
No, I'm focusing the LW on the strategy they pursued IOTL: defeating the RAF in the air, not just bombing their airfields. By forcing the RAF to fight away from their airfields without the ability to tell when and where the LW was coming, they would be forced to maintain standing fighter patrols, which wears down men and machines, so that they cannot husband their strength for when the LW comes over to bomb.
That's assuming that A) the towers take forever to put back, B) the RAF actually lets itself be drawn like that. In reality, it's not the best solution, Devon and Cornwall hold little of value, and the most ideal route to the coal mines in South Wales takes you right over Dorset and Somerset (and near Avon as well), which gives the Royal Observer Corps a bit of time to work with.

When they have to do that, they are losing fighting power both from having to maintain them, but also from the wear-and-tear on the pilots and machines, which IOTL were pretty hard pressed.
Not as hard-pressed as the Germans, RAF pilots got rest cycles, which helped.

The goal of the Battle of Britain was to draw Fighter Command into a battle in the air and destroy them in combat, not by bombing their airfields.
The goal of the Battle of Britain was to destroy the RAF (not just Fighter Command) by any means necessary.

By ripping a whole in the system and forcing 11 group to fight away from their airfields and having to maintain patrols to avoid just letting the Luftwaffe bomb Western Britain and 10 group's airfields...
That's making the assumption that they will want to waste pilots like that.You can run patrols with things other than Hurricanes and Spitfires (and in fact two-seaters would be a better choice, then you could have a dedicated observer), and pilots other than those of Fighter Command.

If it is in a bomber formation and size is seriously indistinct in Chain Home readings, how can they tell?
Height and speed, the DFS 230 (the only one the Germans had in 1940) had a maximum towing speed of 130 mph, and towing them low is going to raise questions. The bearing too is going to be suspicious.

The bombers then force 11 Group to maintain CAP over Southwest England and 10 Group's airfields', where they will be worn down from constant flying and won't be available for operations in Southeastern England.
You keep repeating this like Fighter Command is stupid enough to try it. No. 10 group will be flying its own CAP and sure it'll be hard, but not impossible, and there jack worth hitting in South West England anyway.

Small raids of bombers can swoop in and bomb RADAR construction sites, instead of bombing factories and cities like IOTL during the BoB instead, which is far more profitable.
Maybe, but does absolutely nothing to defeat the RAF if they refuse to play ball.

The RAF was much more worn down in air combat than bombing airfields, which were pretty dangerous for bombers, as they would have to travel further inland and be vulnerable for longer. The RADAR sites were near the coast, so by the time the bombers reach the target the lack of Radar warning means the bombers can tip and run, which IOTL in 1942-3 during the Baedecker raids the British had a very hard time defending against even with BETTER RADAR than in 1940.

Hitting coastal targets were the least dangerous mission for the LW throughout the war, as they were ready to turn and run for France and safety very quickly, while the inland missions like bombing airfields cost significantly more casualties. So the saved bombers will mean more aircraft for more missions for the LW. In a sense bombing the Radar sites pays for itself after a week or so, because the LW will have extra bombers that they didn't have IOTL that were killed earlier in the campaign bombing targets inland that here would survive here.
And if they keep bombing the coast they're doing no damage to the interior, which is where all the real targets are.

So an inexperienced operator would give very bad readings over all, as they were twice handicapped by the poor readings of the system, plus their poor experience reading the reading, which meant that the final report was of limited use other than 'something is coming from x direction'.
Which is generally good enough for an analyst to see what's going on, because if you're flying straight from Dieppe to Dover, then you're probably not going after RAF Tangmere.

True. That would be somewhat of a problem, but with men on the ground confirming the system was destroyed, the Germans are more likely to see through the spoofing, rather than bombing the site from the air only and being unclear if they actually hit the target.
And how do you tell the difference between a dud transmitter and a live Chain Home Low transmitter?

That's why you bomb it after they leave. Come on, give me some credit, rather than taking the most ludicrous ad hominem read.
Me taking the most ludicrous ad hominem, kettle calling the pot pal.

Search planes would also only see targets after they were already approaching, which would still mean several minutes to get the information to the nearest airfield and several more minutes to get planes in the air and to the site, by which time the bombings would be over and the bombers already running for home. CAP with fighters is the only way to ensure the sites are protected once there is a gap in coverage.
Stop beating a dead horse would you? Damaging radar sites distracts from damaging anything actually important to the war effort. You can also erect Chain Home Site inland to watch over those on the coast as they're being repaired.

Now could you please quit with the ridiculous arguments, if the British need forward eyes they're going to use Blackburn Skuas and Rocs, and stuff like that, stuff like that. Neither the aircraft nor the Pilots will come out of Fighter Command
 
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South West is were the vulnerability is and preparedness is less. It is vulnerable, so rip the hole there where there aren't nearly as many RAF airfields or fighters, so that when the fights occur, the LW is at an advantage and can bomb the fields to greater effect. That forces the RAF to fly form Southeastern fields to protect the South West and its coal, as well as the approaches to the intensely valuable and vulnerable Liverpool. There are a lot less Spitfires in 10 group.

And the reason is that the area is at the very margin of the Bf 109 range. The "vulnerable" Liverpool totally is out of range for the Bf 109.

So even if you permanently put the radar network in the South-West out of action (and this isn't going to happen - the British have these mobile radar stations, you know, they did use them in OTL as replacements) what have you achieved? Can you bomb Liverpool?

Yes you can bomb it at night; but you could anyway.

Or you can bomb it in daylight - with unescorted bombers that have to fly within sight of the Observer Corps for a very long time. British fighters take off and slaughter them, given that they have no escort.

Or you can rely on bad weather to hide your unescorted bombers from sighting. Naturally, through clouds, they'll have the same accuracy as at night.

A lot of wasted effort. And I'm not talking about the attacks on the South-Western radar sites, I'm talking about the hundreds of pointless lines you wrote in your messages.
 
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