German 43 decison changes war

trajen777

Banned
Lets say in 43 the deicison is made to foucs not on V2 or Jet me262 bomber tech but instead to focus on
1. SAM's (see below)
2. Jet Fighters
3. The decision for Flex defence on eastren front
4. The radio / wire guided Air to ship missle
5. Sarin gas as last resort for local battles on Eastern Front (see below)
6. Delay till 1945 Type XXII Uboats equalizes or wins? the war in the Atlantic
7. Air war bombing of Germany stopped (Sam - Jet - Uboat sinking Allied ships with US planes)
8. Massive increases in German production (lack of Bombing German Factory - Speer success)
9. Knowledge of US plans of Abomb push Germans - in 45 after the Japnanese cities bombed would / could Germany have bomb also creating early MADD

1. Neutralizing the Allied air forces this is based upon the redirection of critical technology to jet planes (no Hitler redirecting resources to Jet Bomber 262) and ground to air weapons (the tech transfer would be from V2’s)
A. Anti aircraft weapons

Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling
Of all experimental surface-to-air missiles, this one came closest to an operational weapons system. At the end of the war it was in production, but it was never operationally used. With a length of 4.29m, it was a relatively small missile. Its shape was that of a small aircraft, with a sustainer rocket engine in its body, and two boost engines, mounted above and below its fuselage. Range was about 32km, and it could be used against targets up to 10,000m high, although in such cases guidance problems were considerable: Aiming was visual, by means of a radio command link. There were also experiments with air-drops, with the use of radar for guidance, and with proximity fuses.
Rheintochter
This was a large anti-aircraft missile, rather crude in design. It had four tail fins, six fins on the center body, and four canard control fins. It had a boost engine in the tail, and a sustainer in the front fuselage. Control was again visual aiming with a radio command link. Rheintochter III was smaller than Rheintochter I, but had better performance. The project was abandoned in December 1944.
Taifun
This was an unguided anti-aircraft weapon. It was a simple, 1.93m long, spin-stabilized rocket with a 0.5kg warhead. Taifun was accelerated to Mach 3+, and could reach altitudes up to 15000m. It was intended to fire salvos of 30 missiles. At the end of the war it was in mass production.
Wasserfall
The Wasserfall SAM was developed at Peenemüde, and was based on experience with the A-4, also known as V-2. It was smaller, but of similar shape and also powered by liquid fuels. The operator used input from radars tracking both the target and the missile to steer it, using a radio command link. A proximity fuse would ignite the 235kg warhead. The program was cancelled in February 1945, when it was close to the production stage.

B. German Jet Production

German jets produced in 1943 for production so that for the battle of buldge the Germans gained local air supiortiy. Any aircraft getting by would be handled by the above mentioned air to air wepons.

2Sarin gas :
(O-Isopropyl methylphosphonofluoridate), also called GB, is one of the most dangerous and toxic chemicals known. It belongs to a class of chemical weapons known as nerve agents, all of which are organophosphates. The G nerve agents, including tabun, sarin and soman, are all extremely toxic, but not very persistent in the environment. Pure sarin is a colorless and odorless gas, and since it is extremely volatile, and can spread quickly through the air. A lethal dose of sarin is about 0.5 milligrams; it is approximately 500 times more deadly than cyanide. History and global production of sarin. Sarin was first synthesized in 1938 by a group of German scientists researching new pesticides. Its name is derived from the names of the chemists involved in its creation: Schrader, Ambros, Rudriger, and van der Linde. A pilot plant to study the use of sarin was built in Dyernfurth. Although they produced and 10 tons of sarin, the German government decided not to use chemical weapons in artillery during World War II.
All 10 Tonnes were utilized in the attack on Allied HQ, key defence positions (Bastonge),

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first Type XXIII went on war patrol in February. By the end of the European war – May 7 – six were in service, 53 were in the water, and 900 were under construction or on order. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first Type XXI, U-2511, left Hamburg on war patrol on April 30; when she returned home to surrender, 30 Type XXI were in shakedown and training, 121 were in the water and another 1000 were under construction or on order.[/FONT]
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German SAMs were a nonstarter (you'll note that it took until Nike-Ajax and S-25 in 1954 and 1956 respectively for SAMs to enter service and there was not a lack of effort being made upon them). Even if they could get some working, they'll be vulnerable to Allied ECM and low level strikes a la Iron Hand.

How are you getting jet fighters if you've dropped the Me 262 jet fighter? Also, Battle of the Bulge was not in 1943.

3. The decision for Flex defence on eastren front

Might delay the Soviets a few months but that is it.

4. The radio / wire guided Air to ship missle

Already had and used.

5. Sarin gas as last resort for local battles on Eastern Front (see below)

Results in Combined Bomber Offensive gassing the German cities and the Russians pouring out gas upon German troops.

6. Delay till 1945 Type XXII Uboats equalizes or wins? the war in the Atlantic

Type XXI boats won't be built in the neccessary quantities to make an impact on the Atlantic convoys. You might end up strengthening the case for CVA-58 post-war though.

7. Air war bombing of Germany stopped (Sam - Jet - Uboat sinking Allied ships with US planes)

As mentioned those are all non-starter ideas, and bombers could be ferried across without shipping them.

8. Massive increases in German production (lack of Bombing German Factory - Speer success)

Still pitiful compared to what the US alone did.

9. Knowledge of US plans of Abomb push Germans - in 45 after the Japnanese cities bombed would / could Germany have bomb also creating early MADD

Germany has no means of building the bomb (they jacked up the theory) and no means at all of delivering it. But if they're still in the fight, they get hit by the atom bombs first so it's really quite irrelevant.
 
Not possible 1943 is way too late for a German victory. Maybe if they could get peace with Russia or the Allies very unlikely though.
 

CalBear

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Hmmm... Interesting

1. SAMs were NOT a serious weapon in the era. Guidance was simply not up to the task, and the rocket tech itself was also not qute there. The Wasserfall & the Taifun were both liquid fueled, making them extremely hazardous (arguably more hazardous to the ground crews than the enemy) to deploy and very difficult to use in a tactical situation.

2. One of the great overstated POD's of the war. The Reich never had the resources to put more than a couple hundred of aircraft into operational status and the readiness of the Swallow, along with the rest of the early German jets was simply dreadful. The Allies also had any number of counter strokes available to them, ranging from attacking the jet bases (readily identified by the runway requirements of the -262) to simply ignoring them as a special weapon. Swallows suffered losses similar to other German designs during their operational life. The jets were still vulnerable to defensive fire from the bomber boxes, albeit for a shorter period, and far from unbeatable in air to air combat, with a number of P-51 pilots racking up kills against the -262. (This is hardly unique to the -262, as last as Vietnam american pilots in SPAD (AD-1) attack planes were victorious against MiG-17s.)

3. Good idea, it won't help win the war, but it might allow for a longer defense, allowing more of Germany to be taken by the Western Allies, sparing the civilian population the tender ministrations of the NKVD. Problem is that, in 1943, Hitler wanted to Advance, not defend. The German offensive at Kursk began on July 4, 1943.

4. No real change in the war. The weapon wasn't ready until it was far too late and the carrier aircraft was just as vulnerable as any other bomber to Allied fighters.

5. Absolute disaster for the German civilian population. Sarin = retaliation with Mustard & Lewisite gas. Sarin was not a miracle weapon. It would have had no more battlefield utility than the more mainstream war gases & usage would almost beg for Allied counter attacks at a point in the war that German troops were fighting on German soil. Even if used in 1941, the end result is the same. Gas wasn't used in WW II, and has never been used, post WW I, versus a technological equal becuase it provides no tactical or strategic advantage.

6. Nice thought but ULTRA made the U-boats a lost cause. Without communicating they couldn't find targets, by communicating they revealed where they were, and more critically, where they were going. Even the Type XXII had to come shallow to snork and the snork itself was visible on Radar. At best you have a small increase in losses.

7 & 8. As noted above.

9. Zero Chance. German research had made a wrong turn; one that they never detected and assured that the Nazi Bomb was never more than a pipe dream. Germany never even got a controlled self sustaining reaction established (something that Manhattan achieved in 1942) much less a serious building program.

Unfortunately this is another or the "What if the Germans do EVERYTHING right and two or three years ahead of OTL while the Allies sit around with their thumb in their ears doing nothing" scenarios. It simply doesn't add up.
 

trajen777

Banned
German SAMs were a nonstarter (you'll note that it took until Nike-Ajax and S-25 in 1954 and 1956 respectively for SAMs to enter service and there was not a lack of effort being made upon them).
They were heading and in mass production - the ship to ship on wire actually sank 2 allied ships
Even if they could get some working, they'll be vulnerable to Allied ECM and low level strikes a la Iron Hand.
The product worked best below 10,000 ft

How are you getting jet fighters if you've dropped the Me 262 jet fighter? I dropped the me262 bomber not fighterAlso, Battle of the Bulge was not in 1943. left over from a cut and paste from an old post on another bof b post


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3. The decision for Flex defence on eastren front
Might delay the Soviets a few months but that is itnot so sure - in many books it talks about the russ running out of troops - also if you look at some of the battles fought in 43-45 on east front you end up with sometimes close resources on either side - if you compare with B of Karkov and the German victory this is perhpas how it could be fought


Quote:
4. The radio / wire guided Air to ship missle
Already had and used.


Quote:
5. Sarin gas as last resort for local battles on Eastern Front (see below)
Results in Combined Bomber Offensive gassing the German cities and the Russians pouring out gas upon German troops.
Difference between the effects of sarin vs other agents very dramatic


Quote:
6. Delay till 1945 Type XXII Uboats equalizes or wins? the war in the Atlantic
Type XXI boats won't be built in the neccessary quantities to make an impact on the Atlantic convoys. You might end up strengthening the case for CVA-58 post-war though.
If you look at total number in training 138 i think - and the 1000 in production

Quote:
7. Air war bombing of Germany stopped (Sam - Jet - Uboat sinking Allied ships with US planes)
As mentioned those are all non-starter ideas, and bombers could be ferried across without shipping them.
Ah remember fuel - bombs - food - parts - etc


Quote:
8. Massive increases in German production (lack of Bombing German Factory - Speer success)
Still pitiful compared to what the US alone did.
Only if you get from point a to b


Quote:
9. Knowledge of US plans of Abomb push Germans - in 45 after the Japnanese cities bombed would / could Germany have bomb also creating early MADD
Germany has no means of building the bomb (they jacked up the theory) and no means at all of delivering it. But if they're still in the fight, they get hit by the atom bombs first so it's really quite irrelevant.
I think it would have been Japan first - 6 - 12 month delay before other bombs employed
 
Honestly, I don't think dropping the V2 and cutting back on some elements of the Me-262 are going to free sufficient resources to acchieve most of these suggestions.

Okay, so it may allow a few primative SAMs to enter service and it'll probably get the -262 into the fight a bit earlier... but neither of these are truelly war winning.
 
They were heading and in mass production

No German SAM was in mass production and, as mentioned, their concepts were unworkable.

the ship to ship on wire actually sank 2 allied ships

I believe you mean air to ship and what's the relevance to SAMs?

The product worked best below 10,000 ft

It's going to be pretty much completely unworkable under 1,000 feet. If you care to disagree, please explain why the first generation of SAMs actually built would be so vulnerable but these Nazi SAMs would not.

I dropped the me262 bomber not fighter

There was no Me-262 bomber.

not so sure - in many books it talks about the russ running out of troops -

Source them and provide the numbers.

pquote]
also if you look at some of the battles fought in 43-45 on east front you end up with sometimes close resources on either side - if you compare with B of Karkov and the German victory this is perhpas how it could be fought[/quote]

I've no idea what you're trying to say here.

Difference between the effects of sarin vs other agents very dramatic

Biological effects perhaps but not tactical. Furthermore, it will be identified as a chemical weapon and it will be retaliated against.

If you look at total number in training 138 i think - and the 1000 in production

There was a grand total of 118 commissioned with a number more ordered, but certainly not a thousand in production. Only two patrols were made before the war ended and you'd need a much longer war for them to make many more patrols, at which point you end up with Silverplated Superforts dropping atom bombs on Germany first. Most likely response to Type XXI is simply dropping Tallboys and Grandslams on their pens.

Ah remember fuel - bombs - food - parts - etc

You'll need far more submarines than Germany is capable of fielding to shut down the Atlantic convoys.

I think it would have been Japan first - 6 - 12 month delay before other bombs employed

And your basis for either of those beliefs is what precisely?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
...
Quote:
5. Sarin gas as last resort for local battles on Eastern Front (see below)
Results in Combined Bomber Offensive gassing the German cities and the Russians pouring out gas upon German troops.
Difference between the effects of sarin vs other agents very dramatic


[/COLOR]

You are correct that the difference is dramatic. Mustard and Lewisite are far more effective in the military sense.

Sarin is short shelf life (as low as a few weeks), low persistence, gas that kills as it's primary effect leaving a relatively small number of wounded virtually all of whom will recover completely. Regions where sarin has been used are generally completely safe with 18 hours of contamination, making it a very poor area denial weapon.

Mustard and Lewisite (particualarly Mustard) result in low KIA on initial exposure (many exposed to Mustard will not even show symptoms for hours after exposure). Once symptoms appear, however, the exposed are rapidly rendered combat ineffective and require extensive, and extended, medical care. Lewisite provides a speedier onset of disabling symptoms, maming is better suited for a tactical enviroment, but is not quite as effective in damaging of enemy morale as Mustard, as Mustard includes a much more serious chemical burn effect as part of its primary effect. This failing can be overcome by combining the two chemicals into a single cocktail. This is, however, more difficult to produce and is less stable than either gas separately.

The products have a LONG shelf life (WW I Mustard shells are still extremely hazardous) and a persistance timed in days, not hours, making them far more useful for long term area denial. The persistance is also of considerable utility when used against civilian targets or fixed positions, as the chemicals will linger inside structures and in shaded areas for long periods. This is a bonus effect of the products, that they are capable of causing injury requiring medical intervention long after dispersal.

The main military arrtaction of Mustard, Lewisite, or any other blistering agent is that, in general, KIA numbers a fairly low. WIA numbers, however, are very high, with most receiving moderate exposure being rendered hors de combat permanently and many even recieving minimal exposure requiring medical care for weeks, if not months. Every WIA from a blistering attack is a considerable drain on the enemy's resources, especially in the case of field medical support. Blistering agent victims require, in general, 1.5 - 2 persons to afford them the care necessary, making the effective casuality rate 2.5 - 3. This, in military math, is a high ROI.

Despite the clear advantages of blistering agents (and the highly efficient killing potential of later nerve agents like VX, which overcome many of the weaknesses of sarin) they have never been used against an opponent with the capacity to strike back with some sort of chemical agent since the end of the Great War (uses against forces incapable of responding in kind have, of course, been common). Why?

The answer is simple. Chemicals are easy to deploy for both sides, they will have equal effect on both sides (although in the posited case, it could be argued that the blistering agent available to the Americans, British, and Soviets would have been more militarily effective than sarin). Chemical usage in these conditions is counter productive, especially if you have fewer resources than your opponent. They confer no advantage, so they are not used.
 
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