Germaine de Foix, Queen of Hungary

Germaine (niece of King of France Louis XII) and Anne de Foix (first cousin of Queen Anne of Brittany) were planned to marry Jagiellon monarchs as part of French-Jagiellon anti-Habsburg alliance. Germaine was choosen as wife for John Albert, King of Poland, while Anne was choosen for Vladislaus of Bohemia and Hungary. After death of John Albert, his brother Vladislaus was proposed both of them. IOTL he married Anne, but what if he decided to marry Germaine instead? Initially nothing significant would change. Anne de Foix could be allowed in such case to marry her beloved François de Longueville. Then, after death of Isabel of Castile, Ferdinand would look for second wife to prevent possibility of Habsburg take-over of Aragon. Now Germaine is not available, whom could Louis XII propose to him? Ferdinand remarried IOTL in 1506, at the time sister of first Prince of Blood, Marguerite d'Angoulême, was 14 years old. Other option is Françoise d'Alençon, OTL wite of François de Longueville, born in 1490. Which one is more likely?

Anyway, such POD, depending on potential issue of these alternative couples, could cause massive changes in long run-healthly sons of Vladislaus of Hungary and Ferdinand of Aragon could prevent Habsburg takeover of Bohemia, Hungary and Aragon, friendly, or even vassalized Aragon, could allow France to dominate Italy and would make Habsburg encirclement of France less complete. Also, division of Habsburg Empire should be different ITTL-with Spanish Road not available, it is hardly possible to control Netherlands from Castile, Imperial branch would take it. Charles Habsburg would be the one trying to get Bohemian and Hungarian thrones, that doesn't mean he'll be successfull, while Ferdinand could end as regent of Castile.
 
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Ferdinand is in hurry to have a son, I think he'll marry Françoise (altgough 14 yo girl also was considered marriagable back then). Considering OTL Françoise fertility, she should provide Kingdom of Aragon with heir(s). Let's give them two children-Juan, born in 1507 and Isabel, born in 1509.

Now regarding Hungary-Germaine was few years younger than Anne, so I'd expect Jagiellon kids to be born a bit later than IOTL. So Germaine gave birth to son in 1505 and daughter in 1508 (named Louis and Elizabeth). With son being firstborn, there are less tensions between Vladislaus and János Zápolya. Zapolya was enraged by the fact, that Vladislaus promised hand of his daughter to Maximilian's daughters. As leader of 'national' party he was strong opponent of Habsburgs (and he wanted to marry Vladislaus' daughter himself). Only birth of Louis in 1506 improved relations between King and Zapolya. Also with Vladislaus' daughter born later, Janos Zapolya would not wait so long with marriage, he'll marry Margaret Hohenzollern (b.1483), Vladislaus' niece. With conflict between King and Zapolya being less intense and Zapolya already tied with Jagiellons by marriage, and with ITTL Vladislaus' son being healthly, there is less need for marriage between Sigismund Jagiellon and Barbara Zapolya. Perhaps Sigismund would marry Catherine of Mecklenburg, like he originally planned.
 
Whatever Charles Habsburg would do with Ferdinand, he'd take a risk. Let him marry Hungarian princess-he would have more royal thrones than Charles if he succeeded and gets Bohemian and Hungarian crowns, make him governor of Castile is also riskfull. Charles would fear, that brother would rebel against him.
 
Whatever Charles Habsburg would do with Ferdinand, he'd take a risk. Let him marry Hungarian princess-he would have more royal thrones than Charles if he succeeded and gets Bohemian and Hungarian crowns, make him governor of Castile is also riskfull. Charles would fear, that brother would rebel against him.

Not really, technically the Crowns of Castille and Aragon consist of a bunch of kingdoms. Bringing back the kingdoms of Hungary and Bohemia, once held by the Albertine branch of the house of Habsburg, to the Leopoldine (and only surviving) branch was a long time ambition and strategy of the dynasty. In fact the marriage arrangements for Ferdinand were made by the then head of the dynasty, Maximilian, not Charles. Besides Ferdinand was more useful as a representative in the Empire, than the Spanish kingdoms, where the dynasty as Royal House was in a stronger position.
OTL Ferdinand was very loyal to Charles and their dynasty, issues only arose, when it came to the succession in the Empire. Charles hoped that his son would succeed Ferdinand, whereas Ferdinand naturally favoured his own son and was backed by the Prince-Electors.
 
Hello, Jan and all.

The one thing I can say with any level of certainty is that Louis II of Hungary will be a physically different individual, as he has a different mother. He might not even be christened Louis I. Whether Jagiellonian rule over Hungary, etc., prevails for longer than in OTL is an open question.

Vladislaus II had something of a perpetual problem with the Hungarian nobility not taking him too seriously, and having problem reining them in. After a ruler like Matthias Corvinus, Vladislaus might have seemed too trusting, too compromising and far less strict, thus making him an easy target for crippling his central power as Hungary's monarch. There is an actual anecdote from the late 15th century, where Hungarian noblemen supposedly coined the mockery-filled idiom "You are our king... and we are your lords !".

I think what is far more crucial for sustained Jagellonian rule is not so much replacing Anne of Foix, as it is just making Vladislaus II position as monarch stronger from the very outset. Corvinus might be a tough act to follow in terms of Hungary's renown as a well-defended, fairly successfully offensive, and technologically and culturally progressing regional power, but Vladislaus II isn't necessarily incapable to keep that continuity going.
 
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@Petike I'm well aware about personality of Vladislaus Rex Bene . He was elected to Hungarian throne for the very fact of being passive and easy to manipulate, unlike his brother John Albert, whom Hungarian magnates feared as potential second Matthias Corvinus. After period of Matthias' strong rule magnates wanted weak monarch so they get one. ITTL Vladislaus is still weak, but at least have healthly son (still named Louis after Louis I of Hangary, remembered as great monarch, and Louis XII of France, who is Germaine's uncle) and would live few years longer likely (Vladislaus was depressed after death of Anne). Also ITTL Louis having living mother and not being raised by his degenerate cousin Georg Hohenzollern would further improve situation.

@Janprimus so Ferdinand would still be Charles' representative in Germany (although not married to the daughter of Hungarian King, I think Charles would want her for himself, and in such case he'll need Austria as base to get Hungarian and Bohemian thrones, so Ferdinand would not get whole Austria, maybe just Tirol)? You've mentioned in other thread, that Ferdinand could be made Duke of Würtemberg.
 
@Petike I'm well aware about personality of Vladislaus Rex Bene . He was elected to Hungarian throne for the very fact of being passive and easy to manipulate, unlike his brother John Albert, whom Hungarian magnates feared as potential second Matthias Corvinus. After period of Matthias' strong rule magnates wanted weak monarch so they get one. ITTL Vladislaus is still weak, but at least have healthly son (still named Louis after Louis I of Hangary, remembered as great monarch, and Louis XII of France, who is Germaine's uncle) and would live few years longer likely (Vladislaus was depressed after death of Anne). Also ITTL Louis having living mother and not being raised by his degenerate cousin Georg Hohenzollern would further improve situation.

A nicer childhood, with a firmer foundation, would certainly be an asset to ATL-Louis. Refresh my memory, though: Was he that sickly ? I don't remember that.
 
A nicer childhood, with a firmer foundation, would certainly be an asset to ATL-Louis. Refresh my memory, though: Was he that sickly ? I don't remember that.
IOTL Louis, despite his premature birth, was physically healthly, even fit (he was good rider), but menthally retarded. Being "raised" by Georg further skewed him, making his life chain of feasts, hunting parties and orgies.
 
IOTL Louis, despite his premature birth, was physically healthly, even fit (he was good rider), but menthally retarded. Being "raised" by Georg further skewed him, making his life chain of feasts, hunting parties and orgies.

You have a point there. I had no idea he was that dim, though ! :eek:

I thought the guy was just naive, inexperienced and a bit of a skirt chaser.

I suppose the flattering period quote about his wife Mary by others, "If she could only be changed into a king, our affairs would be in better shape.", was rather reflective of the marriage and the then political situation. Even if Louis was a simpleton, it's quite interesting she decided never to remarry. I don't know if it was out of pity for him, or a sense of guilt, or some sense of religious duty (even as a young widow), but she seems to have stuck to that vow quite closely.

One also has to wonder whether a pairing of the ATL-Louis and Mary would have influenced the situation for the better, even if it would still bring Hungary firmly into the Habsburg orbit. Had they produced an heir, you could see at least a partial extention of Jagiellonian rule during the 16th century, though the Habsburgs will also be "calling dibs" on whatever heir Mary and ATL-Louis might have.
 
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I suppose the flattering period quote about his wife Mary by others, "If she could only be changed into a king, our affairs would be in better shape.", was rather reflective of the marriage and the then political situation. Even if Louis was a simpleton, it's quite interesting she decided never to remarry. I don't know if it was out of pity for him, or a sense of guilt, or some sense of religious duty (even as a young widow), but she seems to have stuck to that vow quite closely.

She wouldn't have been the first princess that had thought after her husband died "thank goodness I'm a widow. No remarriage for me". It seems odd when you think about it, but as soon as she could leave Hungary she hightailed it to the Netherlands and put her under her aunt's protection. If there was ONE woman Karl respected/feared to displease, it was his surrogate mother, Margarethe of Austria. So, he could've arranged the grandest match in Christendom for Marie and she could refuse it, knowing her aunt would back her up.

NOTE: I don't say that Margarethe WOULD'VE flouted her nephew, but it's certainly possible, given Marge's own strong personality, and the fact that she essentially was the mother-figure in Karl's life
 
You have a point there. I had no idea he was that dim, though ! :eek:

I thought the guy was just naive, inexperienced and a bit of a skirt chaser.

I suppose the flattering period quote about his wife Mary by others, "If she could only be changed into a king, our affairs would be in better shape.", was rather reflective of the marriage and the then political situation. Even if Louis was a simpleton, it's quite interesting she decided never to remarry. I don't know if it was out of pity for him, or a sense of guilt, or some sense of religious duty (even as a young widow), but she seems to have stuck to that vow quite closely.

One also has to wonder whether a pairing of the ATL-Louis and Mary would have influenced the situation for the better, even if it would still bring Hungary firmly into the Habsburg orbit. Had they produced an heir, you could see at least a partial extention of Jagiellonian rule during the 16th century, though the Habsburgs will also be "calling dibs" on whatever heir Mary and ATL-Louis might have.
Polish envoy in Buda has written about 17 years old King Louis, that "King is getting dumber and dumber, whoever wants, writes petitions for grants, and King accepts everything, not even reading these petitions". Louis was also exhibitionist and frequently showed himself naked to his guests.
 
Polish envoy in Buda has written about 17 years old King Louis, that "King is getting dumber and dumber, whoever wants, writes petitions for grants, and King accepts everything, not even reading these petitions". Louis was also exhibitionist and frequently showed himself naked to his guests.

Could cause some awkward diplomatic incidents.

But, moving that aside, wouldn't Erszebet still wind up with Ferdinand (simply because of the age gap between her and Karl).

Also, would your alt-Lajos II marry Marie of Austria? Renée de France? Someone else?

It would be interesting to see how Hungary would fare with a competent king (and let's not discount Germaine out of the equation, she was obviously a reasonably good politician if Karl V trusted her as he did). Maybe no Mohács (or an alternative), and a continued flowering of Buda as an academic centre as it was under Matyas?
 
I don't know if Charles would want Ferdinand to marry Elizabeth. It is possible he'd want Bohemian and Hungarian crowns for himself, ITTL he has only half of Spain instead of whole, that could make him more throne-hungry. OTOH Charles would rather preffer Ferdinand as his representative in Germany rather than as Viceroy of Castile.
 
I have idea-Vladislaus has two daughters, besides Elizabeth, there is Maria, born in 1510. Now Habsburgs want them both-older for Charles, younger for Ferdinand, to prevent anyone else from claiming Bohemia and Hungary (something like Elector of Brandenburg did with 3 daughters of Albert Frederick of Prussia).
 
OTOH dowry of Isabella of Portugal would be tempting so what about this: Louis of Hungary and Maria of Austria could wed earlier than Vladislaus' daughter(s), being few years older. Louis marries in 1521, in 1522 his first son is born. Charles is not in hurry with marriage, being Emperor, he wants to have as many options open as possible. Birth of Louis jr. means, that perspective of taking Hungarian and Bohemian thrones in this generation are slim, so taking dowry of Isabella is better buisness.
 
Now returning to Aragon. Ferdinand of Aragon left 2 children with Françoise. If Aragon is allied to Castile, looking for Habsburg support against French claims to Naples, then John III could marry his half-niece Catherine (they're both born in 1507) while his sister Isabella could marry John III of Portugal. If Aragon is afraid of possibility of Habsburg usurpation of Aragonese throne, thus is allied with France, then John of Aragon could marry Reneé of France, while Isabella could be second wife of Francis I.
 
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@Janprimus so Ferdinand would still be Charles' representative in Germany (although not married to the daughter of Hungarian King, I think Charles would want her for himself, and in such case he'll need Austria as base to get Hungarian and Bohemian thrones, so Ferdinand would not get whole Austria, maybe just Tirol)? You've mentioned in other thread, that Ferdinand could be made Duke of Würtemberg.

Provided Ferdinand of Aragon manages to sire a male heir, this can change the succession, otherwise his eldest surviving daughter and her sons (Charles and Ferdinand) will be ahead in the succession.

OTL Charles and Ferdinand only divided the Habsburg-Trastamara-Burgundy inheritance in those regions, where this was (still a custom), which were the Austrian Hereditary Lands and there Ferdinand ended up with even the share of Charles to bolster his position as husband of Anne, the potential heiress* of Bohemia & Hungary (*= rather the key to be considered to be elected, since women IIRC rarely ruled in their own right (not counting the much later Maria Theresia)).
The elective thrones of Bohemia and Hungary, the latter heavily threatened by the Ottoman Empire, or the hereditary throne of the then Great Power Castille, I guess the latter in many ways has more appeal, OTOH that can also be divided at a later point.
However IOTL the Estates in Castille were in favour of a Portuguese match, though then there already was the union with Aragon, which is less certain ITTL.
The Habsburgs gained Württemberg after duke Ulrich of Württemberg lost the war against the Swabian League, which sold it to them. Without Aragon, yes keeping this will gain importance.
No Aragon will also mean the Habsburgs can focus on Milan, given that even IOTL the armies of Castille were rather crucial in doing so, and now Southern Italy is not a direct distraction, the only issue might be logistics, an ally with a port in Northern Italy is vital, so Savoy could gain in importance.
 
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