Georgian Yorks

What might the implications be of George, duke of Clarence, avoiding his execution by malmsey wine (or at least the events leading thereto)? I assume he would be remembered as the evil uncle of the princes in the Tower rather than Gloucester.
 
Did he get along with his sister in law? Is it likely that he'd die of something stupid (say, drunk and drown in a puddle) before his brother?

I'm not sure if he was clever enough to pull off a coup like Richard did OTL.
 
AFAIK all of Richard's allegations of bigamy against Edward IV were originally voiced by Clarence. Richard just mistakenly named Elinor Talbot as Edward's betrothed.
 
The confusion is thanks to Tudor historians who confused Elinor Butler (neé Talbot) with Edward's mistress, Elizabeth Wayte/Lucy, since Duchess Cecily did not approve of such a match, but according to Stillington Edward was pre-contracted and had a son by the time he married Lady Grey.
 
What might the implications be of George, duke of Clarence, avoiding his execution by malmsey wine (or at least the events leading thereto)? I assume he would be remembered as the evil uncle of the princes in the Tower rather than Gloucester.
Pretty sure he gets offed at some point later by his brothers. As others have noted, he was simultaneously incredibly treacherous and incredibly incompetent. Either way, Richard would wipe the floor with him even if he somehow survived until Edward IV was dead.

The only interesting scenario is if there's an earlier Lancastrian restoration attempt, he might be the Lancastrian claimant instead of Henry Tudor. It seems that Oxford's invasion in 1474 may have been an attempt to support a rebellion by Clarence that never materialized.
 
Pretty sure he gets offed at some point later by his brothers. As others have noted, he was simultaneously incredibly treacherous and incredibly incompetent. Either way, Richard would wipe the floor with him even if he somehow survived until Edward IV was dead.

The only interesting scenario is if there's an earlier Lancastrian restoration attempt, he might be the Lancastrian claimant instead of Henry Tudor. It seems that Oxford's invasion in 1474 may have been an attempt to support a rebellion by Clarence that never materialized.

This is for my tl, the Rose of Lancaster, and I was wondering if that invasion might be more possible with Marguerite d'Anjou (as the leader of the Lancastrians) and George as a second in command as the holder of the Warwick estates not in her daughter-in-law's possession.
 
Pretty sure he gets offed at some point later by his brothers. As others have noted, he was simultaneously incredibly treacherous and incredibly incompetent. Either way, Richard would wipe the floor with him even if he somehow survived until Edward IV was dead.

Wouldn't the two brothers be allies against the Woodvilles?
 
This is for my tl, the Rose of Lancaster, and I was wondering if that invasion might be more possible with Marguerite d'Anjou (as the leader of the Lancastrians) and George as a second in command as the holder of the Warwick estates not in her daughter-in-law's possession.
Hard to say; I doubt Margaret of Anjou would be happy to cooperate with Clarence again (she had had to hold her nose the first time), but she may not have had any choice. Plus, I'm not sure what the terms of her ransom were, or even if she would be ransomed ITTL. She may not have been in a position to accomplish anything.

On the other hand, relying on Clarence for anything is a clear desperation move. Not only had he betrayed both sides already (and would thus almost certainly be under suspicion), but he OTL doesn't seem to have lifted a finger for any of the various Lancastrian invasions after 1471, even the ones that may have been relying on him. He seems the sort of person who would talk a big game and then chicken out at the last moment.

One other problem is the lack of Lancastrians; the 1470-71 invasion had wiped out most of the prominent ones, and many of the rest were either captured or killed in subsequent raids. It's not really until the accession of Richard III, and the disappearance of the Princes in the Tower, that the Lancastrians get a significant number of prominent supporters again (from former Woodville partisans and the escape of Oxford and co.).

As for Clarence and Gloucester teaming up, remember that they have property disputes, in addition to the more general trust issues (Richard had loyally accompanied his brother into exile, while George...had collaborated with the people who sent his brothers into exile). If he's still alive, George would be senior, which probably wouldn't go over well with Richard, who likely has a better powerbase. Besides, Richard will know exactly the sort of person George is, so probably won't trust him.
 
What if MoA offers him her granddaughter for his son, or he demands such a match as his price - she agrees, knowing she can always welsh on the deal later - as well as that he would be given the lions share of Warwick estates once they get the crown
MoA renegs on both promises once shes installed as Regent, so Clarence turns coat AGAIN and goes back on his knees for York.
 
As for Clarence and Gloucester teaming up, remember that they have property disputes, in addition to the more general trust issues (Richard had loyally accompanied his brother into exile, while George...had collaborated with the people who sent his brothers into exile). If he's still alive, George would be senior, which probably wouldn't go over well with Richard, who likely has a better powerbase. Besides, Richard will know exactly the sort of person George is, so probably won't trust him.

This is fair enough, but it seems to me that you're pretty clearly going to have the Woodvilles on one side and Clarence on the other. Gloucester has to choose one side or the other.
 
This is fair enough, but it seems to me that you're pretty clearly going to have the Woodvilles on one side and Clarence on the other. Gloucester has to choose one side or the other.

Why does it have to be a two way battle?
 
Few points:
1) Lancastrian hopes were dead by the 1470s - the most prominant supporters were dead or gone.
2) Edward IV was a fairly competant ruler and to most of the elite that was way more important than anything else.
3) Dividing lines within the Yorkist court were pretty clear - George was motivated by jealousy of his brother and his own inflated view of himself, Richard was loyal and until Edward's death had a good relationship with the Queen and her brother, The Queen despite the propoganda was actually not particularly politically involved though she certainly disliked and feared George, Hastings was loyal to Edward but didn't like the Queen and her son Dorset who was his step son in law (largely due to the fact they were rivals for power in the Midlands).
4) A scenario where George (by some miracle) survives - then in 1483 he is going to struggle to gain support, Edward's household were on the whole loyal to his son, Richard has little to gain by supporting George who has never been too happy his brother got any of the Neville inheritance and the Queen's son and brother will support Edward V, Hastings might have resented Dorset and Rivers but he will support Edward V over George.
5) A surviving George therefore is likely to make allegations about Edward or his son's illegitimacy and is likely to find himself in the tower unless he is very very lucky in 1483.
In a scenario where Richard throws his weight behind the young King then you probably have a more amicable settlement between him and the council and all unite behind Edward V.
 
As McNab says, a surviving Clarence likely means an Edward V grown to adulthood whilst Clarence, and presumably his son, end up dead. Richard will be less well remembered by history (but remembered nicer) and be like the brothers of the Georgian monarchs whom one vaguely knows of, but not much else, despite their prominence and military command at the time.

The Lancastrians' hope is to make peace with Edward IV's successor. The council of regency is likely to remain in place, with Richard and Hastings making common cause against any Clarencian shenanigans, and Edward V only has a few years to go before he can be declared of age. Henry Tudor will push for the restoration of his title as Earl of Richmond, and maybe the other surviving Lancastrians will join him (de Vere etc).

Of course, things won't be rosy and bushy long-term - this IS the medieval period, after all, but with Edward V an adult, and married, history is going to be taking a very different path into the 1490s

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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