George H. Thomas as a Confederate General

Anaxagoras

Banned
Thomas was offered Chief of Ordnance in the Virginia Provisional Army, I think had he accepted the post or left for the South he might have climbed the rank ladder with equal speed as he did for the Union. And there are any number of reasons why he might be told to go out West, but given Thomas's performance in OTL he could shine there.

I think he would advance more quickly in Confederate service than in Union service. IOTL, he faced two problems: one, he was distrusted because he was a Virginian, and two, he and Grant disliked each other for reasons which are not clear.
 
I think he would advance more quickly in Confederate service than in Union service. IOTL, he faced two problems: one, he was distrusted because he was a Virginian, and two, he and Grant disliked each other for reasons which are not clear.

Here, he's a Virginian without any particular friends in high places, and he might well have just as much trouble with some other guy as he did OTL with Grant. Even if its entirely not his fault.

Plus, if he's Chief of Ordinance in the provisional army, he's going to transfer to either the PACS or the tiny Confederate regular army with low seniority most likely, and seniority played a significant role in promotions.

I think that holds him back more than "being a Virginian" did OTL. And he was already a major general (of volunteers) by the point Grant's animosity would have had any relevance to him being promoted - though if we mean assigning commands, that might have been somewhat impacted in '64.
 
While, as a Thomas supporter, I absolutely love the question, the immediate answer is "We Need a Timeline" - the butterflies from this one are too big to give any real answer without one.

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Thomas accepts the position of Chief of Ordinance of the Virginia Provisional Army. When it is integrated into the Confederate armed forces, Thomas receives the rank of Brigadier General and is given command of a mixed brigade in the Army of the Potomac, Beauregard commanding.

Thomas drills his brigade rigorously, but fairly, and his men look up to him. He soon strikes a friendship with fellow Brigadier James Longstreet, who shares many of his views on the military and life in general. Their two brigades, with Bonham's in close support and Early's in reserve, are tasked with guarding the major crossings of Bull Run.

On July 18th, their position is attacked by Tyler's Union division. Posted in a naturally strong position, Longstreet and Thomas fight the northerners off without great difficultly. Morale rises in the ranks.

On July 21st, the Battle of Bull Run is won on the far left flank by Jackson and others. Longstreet and Thomas remained in their positions along Bull Run as ordered.

In the reorganization of the army that follows after the battle, Longstreet is promoted to Major General and given command of a division that contains Thomas' brigade. Their relative rankings are in response to the popular notion that Virginian's are overly represented in command position. Everyone acknowledges that Thomas will be promoted at the first opportunity. In the meanwhile, Thomas serves ably and happily as Longstreet's effective second-in-command.

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OR:

Thomas accepts the position of Chief of Ordinance of the Virginia Provisional Army. When it is integrated into the Confederate armed forces, Thomas receives the rank of Brigadier General and is given command of a mixed brigade in the Army of the Potomac, Beauregard commanding.

Thomas drills his brigade rigorously, but fairly, and his men look up to him. He soon strikes a friendship with fellow Brigadier James Longstreet, who shares many of his views on the military and life in general. Their two brigades, with Bonham's in close support and Early's in reserve, are tasked with guarding the major crossings of Bull Run.

On July 18th, their position is attacked by Tyler's Union division. Posted in a naturally strong position, Longstreet and Thomas fight the northerners off without great difficultly. Morale rises in the ranks.

On the morning of July 21st, when Beauregard and newly-arrived Johnston are informed that their left flank is turned, they immediately send reinforcements from the right of their army in the form of Jackson's brigade. The fighting of the 18th revealed to their satisfaction that only 1 brigade is necessary to hold the main Bull Run crossings. Thomas' brigade is pulled out of line and told to be in readiness to march to the left flank. He is ordered to do so early in the afternoon.

By around 3 o'clock the fighting on and around Henry House Hill is reaching its climax. Jackson's brigade has held off every attack the Union launched against it, but they are tiring. And while the Union troops are becoming increasingly disorganized and losing artillery batteries at an alarming rate, they still hold a formidable numerical advantage if they can be coordinated.

Thomas arrives some distance from Jackson's left fank. He can see that what Union artillery remains in action is posted on a height paralleling Henry House Hill called Chinn Ridge. Furthermore, a regiment of infantry is posted in support, while four more (Howard's brigade) are marching in that direction. A strong Union attack from that prominance would outflank Jackson's brigade. On the other hand, from his own position, Thomas would be on *their* flank.

As he had received no detailed orders one way or the other, Thomas marched his men towards Chinn Ridge. Due to the lay of the land and everyone's attention being focused on Henry House Hill, Thomas' approach is largely undetected. Howard's brigade, one of the last organized Yankee units on the field, is routed. Thomas prudently halts his own attack as the northerners retreat past the Warrenton Turnpike, as his own men have become equally disorganized in victory.

In the reorganization of the army that follows after the battle, Thomas is promoted to Major General and given command of a division. While "Stonewall" Jackson is the great savior of the Confederacy on this day, July 21st, Thomas is recognized as the man who led the attack that ultimately routed the Union army. He serves alongside fellow division commander James Longstreet with the main army, and both men are recognized as highly competent generals.

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OR:

Thomas accepts the position of Chief of Ordinance of the Virginia Provisional Army. When it is integrated into the Confederate armed forces, Thomas receives the rank of Brigadier General and is given command of a Virginia brigade in the Army of the Shenandoah, Johnston commanding.

In the fighting around Falling Waters and Opequon Creek, early in July, the lion's share of the fighting is directed by brigade commanders George Thomas and Thomas Jackson, commanding fellow brigades of Virginians. Facing the very cautious Union commander Patterson and largely green brigade commanders, the fighting goes entirely the Confederates' way. By the middle of the month, Patterson is in full retreat towards Harper's Ferry and will eventually pull back all the way into Maryland.

Soon enough Johnston is called upon to come to the aid of Beauregard at Manassas Junction. He is fixated on the idea of using the railroad as a means of transportation. Jackson's brigade entrains first, followed by Thomas', and then Barnard's. These three arrive in time to fight at Bull Run. Bee's arrives on the field at the very end of the battle.

Jackson's brigade, arriving first, is slated to join the ultimately-aborted attack from the Confederate right flank. Thomas' and Barnard's brigades are held in general reserve. When word comes that the Confederate left flank is turned, these two brigades are immediately sent to shore it up.

Thomas and Barnard make a determined stand on high ground north of Henry House Hill, and delay the Union advance for over an hour. However, they are becoming increasingly outnumbered. Thomas advises Barnard that they must retire on their artillery, then unlimbering on Henry House Hill, and to pull back *now* while they can still do so with order. Barnard agrees, but before they can carry the movement out, a musketball hits Thomas in the left leg. Seriously wounded, he is carried from the field.

Barnard takes the men back to Henry House Hill with very little order, but fortunately for the South that day, Thomas Jackson's fresh brigade is just then arriving to take over the defense. After a hard fight all afternoon, the Union army retires from the field in complete disorder, and Jackson has earned the nickname "Stonewall".

Thomas' leg is amputated at a field hospital back at Manassas Junction. For gallantry on the field he is promoted to Major General. However, it will be 1862 before he is ready to assume active command duties again.

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OR:

Thomas accepts the position of Chief of Ordinance of the Virginia Provisional Army. When it is integrated into the Confederate armed forces, Thomas receives the rank of Brigadier General and is given command of a Virginia brigade in the Army of the Shenandoah, Johnston commanding.

In the fighting around Falling Waters and Opequon Creek, early in July, the lion's share of the fighting is directed by brigade commanders George Thomas and Thomas Jackson, commanding fellow brigades of Virginians. Facing the very cautious Union commander Patterson and largely green brigade commanders, the fighting goes entirely the Confederates' way. By the middle of the month, Patterson is in full retreat towards Harper's Ferry and will eventually pull back all the way into Maryland.

Soon enough Johnston is called upon to come to the aid of Beauregard at Manassas Junction. He is fixated on the idea of using the railroad as a means of transportation. Thomas, however, suggests that in the time it will take for their one train to make multiple two-way trips to Manassas Junction, a single brigade can travel by foot, and volunteers his own men. Johnston agrees.

Thomas arrives on July 20th, and is added to the battle plan as close support for the brigade of Jackson, scheduled to make an attack from the Confederate right the following day. This plan is disrupted, however, when Union infantry is sighted outflanking the Confederate right. The brigades of Barnard and Bee, the general reserve, are sent to stop the Union advance. They slow it down, but by noon are in retreat towards Henry House Hill. The brigades of Jackson and Thomas are immediately sent to stabilize the situation.

Jackson and Thomas, both former artillerists, recognize the natural strength of the Henry House Hill position. They situate their men accordingly, Jackson on the left and Thomas on the right. This position is a natural rallying point for Confederate troops all over the field.

The Union advance continues by mid-afternoon, never coordinated, but with the numerical advantage. Jackson and Thomas hold firm at first, but eventually their men begin to waver. A Union relief column sent to retrieve some captured batteries begins to sneak its way around Jackson's left flank.

Jackson rides to the threatened flank and begins to sort matters out. Locally he is not outnumbered, but the men are tired. Just as it seems like he has matters well in hand, a musketball strikes his right shoulder. Losing blood fast, stretcher-bearers make to carry him from the field, and his men seem about ready to retreat after him.

Jackson forces himself to a sitting position and addresses his troops. "You are Virginians. You shall not retreat from this ground. Look," he says, gesturing to the right, "there stands Thomas like a stone wall. You will hold just as surely as he will." Sure enough, Thomas' brigade is holding the line with no major difficulties.

Re-emboldened, Jackson's men redouble their defense. Thomas, recognizing their plight, takes a regiment from his own line to shore up the left flank. Never once do his or Jackson's men break. By day's end, the Union army is routed and in full retreat to the Washington defenses.

Confederate hero George "Stonewall" Thomas is promoted to Major General and given command of all troops in the Shenandoah Valley. At first it is organized into a division, consisting in part of his old and Jackson's old brigade. The two formations are inseperable in battle after that day, and collectively known as the Stonewall Brigades.

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I can see any of these 4 ideas playing out, or any dozens more. And it seems to me to be mildly futile (at best) speculating any farther than that without at least establishing a TL such as the above four on which to work with.
 
Thomas was offered Chief of Ordnance in the Virginia Provisional Army, I think had he accepted the post or left for the South he might have climbed the rank ladder with equal speed as he did for the Union. And there are any number of reasons why he might be told to go out West, but given Thomas's performance in OTL he could shine there.

In the CSA Army, you got to command armies based on seniority or Jefferson Davis liking you far more than on actual ability. If Thomas accepts Chief of Ordnance in the Virginia Provisional Army, he probably gets Chief or Ordinance of the Confederate Army over the Pennsylvanian Gorgas. Ironically this leaves the CSA with a less skilled Chief of Ordinance than in OTL.

Butterflies also makes it unlikely that Robert E Lee sees field command after his initial failures in West Virginia. If Thomas does see battlefield command, Lee soehow ends up leading the AoNV, and Thomas doesn't get on Lee's bad side like Magruder or DH Hill, then he has a shot at Corps command.

Longstreet would still be the one sent west; Longstreet had been pushing for it, hard, for a long time. If Thomas has a AoNV Corps, then Longstreet has less men and is unlikely to have as much impact in the west as he did in OTL.
 
One problem with the "Thomas gets a brigade at First Manassas" scenario: At whose expense, or alternately, with what units?

http://www.civilwarhome.com/bullrunbattleorderconfed.htm

You could, I think, assign him the "not brigaded" units in Beauregard's army - but he probably won't see any action at First Bull Run.

Also, judging by OTL, why is he necessarily becoming a brigadier? Two of Beauregard's six brigades (three of seven counting Evans's command), and one of Johnston's four, are commanded by colonels.

Cocke actually being reduced a step for some reason I can't remember now.

It's a minor quibble, but if we write a proper timeline, we should address it.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Ironically this leaves the CSA with a less skilled Chief of Ordinance than in OTL.

That's the truth. Gorgas was a near genius and has been sadly ignored by history.

If Thomas does see battlefield command, Lee soehow ends up leading the AoNV, and Thomas doesn't get on Lee's bad side like Magruder or DH Hill, then he has a shot at Corps command.

Lee was already very familiar with Thomas when the war began. IIRC, Thomas was a major in the 2nd Cavalry, of which Lee served as the executive officer under A.S. Johnston. Lee liked and respected Thomas a great deal, so I doubt Thomas would end up on Lee's "bad side".

Longstreet would still be the one sent west; Longstreet had been pushing for it, hard, for a long time. If Thomas has a AoNV Corps, then Longstreet has less men and is unlikely to have as much impact in the west as he did in OTL.

Assuming these events are not butterflied away.
 
I think he would advance more quickly in Confederate service than in Union service. IOTL, he faced two problems: one, he was distrusted because he was a Virginian, and two, he and Grant disliked each other for reasons which are not clear.

"I had been at West Point with Thomas for one year, and had known him later in the old army. He was a man of commanding appearance, slow and deliberate in speech and action; sensible, honest, and brave. He possessed valuable soldierly qualities in an eminent degree. He gained the confidence of all who served under him, and almost their love. This implies a very valuable quality. It is a quality which call out the most efficient services serving under the commander possessing it.

Thomas dispositions were deliberately made, and always good. He could not be driven from a point he was given to hold. He was not as good, however, in pursuit as he was in action. I do not believe he could ever have conducted Sherman's army from Chattanooga to Atlanta against the defences and the commander guarding that line in 1864. On the other hand, if it had been given him to hold the line which Johnston tried to hold, neither that general, nor Sherman, nor any other officer could have done it better.

Thomas was a valuable office, who richly deserved, as he has received, the plaudits of his countrymen for the part he played in the great tragedy of 1861-5." - Ulysses S Grant
 
Lee was already very familiar with Thomas when the war began. IIRC, Thomas was a major in the 2nd Cavalry, of which Lee served as the executive officer under A.S. Johnston. Lee liked and respected Thomas a great deal, so I doubt Thomas would end up on Lee's "bad side".

Not to mention that Thomas served at West Point as a cavalry and artillery instructor under Lee, where the two apparently became friends.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Thomas was a valuable office, who richly deserved, as he has received, the plaudits of his countrymen for the part he played in the great tragedy of 1861-5." - Ulysses S Grant

Of course Grant is going to say this in his memoirs. But look at his treatment of Thomas during the war itself. Thomas, not Sherman, should have been appointed commander of Union forces in the Western Theater in 1864. And Grant ordered Thomas replaced during the Nashville Campaign (orders thankfully never delivered) even though Thomas was doing exactly what he should have been doing.
 
"Thomas dispositions were deliberately made, and always good. He could not be driven from a point he was given to hold. He was not as good, however, in pursuit as he was in action. I do not believe he could ever have conducted Sherman's army from Chattanooga to Atlanta against the defences and the commander guarding that line in 1864. On the other hand, if it had been given him to hold the line which Johnston tried to hold, neither that general, nor Sherman, nor any other officer could have done it better." - Ulysses S Grant

Nashville and the following pursuit? Thomas was in my opinion the best offensive general in the Union army. Grant's faint praise here is clearly intended to put down Thomas's reputation, when Thomas was no longer around to defend himself.
 
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I think he would advance more quickly in Confederate service than in Union service. IOTL, he faced two problems: one, he was distrusted because he was a Virginian, and two, he and Grant disliked each other for reasons which are not clear.

IMHO it was because Halleck appointed Thomas to command Grant's Army in the first Corinth Campaign without consulting Grant on that matter, while this happened again when Lincoln appointed Thomas to appoint the Army of the Cumberland without allowing Grant any say-so. Grant could be......prickly....about such things, if less flamboyant than most ACW generals about them.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
IMHO it was because Halleck appointed Thomas to command Grant's Army in the first Corinth Campaign without consulting Grant on that matter, while this happened again when Lincoln appointed Thomas to appoint the Army of the Cumberland without allowing Grant any say-so. Grant could be......prickly....about such things, if less flamboyant than most ACW generals about them.

I can see this. More generally, I think it was Grant's devotion to his Army of the Tennessee clique. Thomas's commission as major general predated that of Sherman. Thomas had a MUCH better combat record and much more pre-war experience in the army. But Sherman got command of all Western armies when Grant went east. I can't see any reason other than personal favoritism.

Nor can I see how Grant could have any right to be upset when Lincoln put Thomas in charge of the AotC. He was the senior corps commander, after all, and his performance at Chickamauga more than justified the decision. In fact, Thomas had been offered the job previously and had turned it down.
 
Of course Grant is going to say this in his memoirs. But look at his treatment of Thomas during the war itself. Thomas, not Sherman, should have been appointed commander of Union forces in the Western Theater in 1864. And Grant ordered Thomas replaced during the Nashville Campaign (orders thankfully never delivered) even though Thomas was doing exactly what he should have been doing.

Most generals are more acidic in their memoirs, not less, at least in the ACW. Longstreet is infamous for this.

I agree with both, but on the second half: Does Grant know that?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Does Grant know that?

He's been told by everyone in Nashville, not just Thomas, that a freaking blizzard has just taken place and he should be smart enough to know that cavalry cannot operate effectively when the ground is one giant sheet of ice.

Besides, I cannot see Grant giving the same treatment as he gave to Thomas during the Nashville Campaign to Sherman, Sheridan, McPherson, or one of his other favorites.
 
He's been told by everyone in Nashville, not just Thomas, that a freaking blizzard has just taken place and he should be smart enough to know that cavalry cannot operate effectively when the ground is one giant sheet of ice.

Besides, I cannot see Grant giving the same treatment as he gave to Thomas during the Nashville Campaign to Sherman, Sheridan, McPherson, or one of his other favorites.

I know some of the messages were delayed (for weather related conditions ironically, I think), so I'm wondering if there was a problem with those messages.

And in Grant's shoes, I'm not sure I'd abstain from prodding whoever it was unless I trusted them impeccably - and Thomas's reasons for not attacking immediately can sound an awful lot like excuses. I'm not saying they were, but it would be easy to misread them.

Thomas never explained why his cavalry being mounted was so all-fired important to smashing Hood for good.

All of this sounds like something he could easily face from a Confederate superior - even if Lee liked him, Davis might not - I can see Thomas in Jackson's position (say) rubbing Davis the wrong way, wholly unintentionally.
 
He's been told by everyone in Nashville, not just Thomas, that a freaking blizzard has just taken place and he should be smart enough to know that cavalry cannot operate effectively when the ground is one giant sheet of ice.

Besides, I cannot see Grant giving the same treatment as he gave to Thomas during the Nashville Campaign to Sherman, Sheridan, McPherson, or one of his other favorites.

Well, it might do good to remember here that even Sherman admits it took a very long time to talk Grant into first the March to the Sea and then the Carolinas Campaign. Grant could and did rely on intrigue as a tool of generalship, he masterfully and repeatedly, after all, schooled McClernand on the difference between the wannabe and the master in terms of that. The primary difference is that Grant was dour and prone to understatement in a war where the quota of egomaniacal douchebag had been solidly overfulfilled.
 
Most generals are more acidic in their memoirs, not less, at least in the ACW. Longstreet is infamous for this.

I agree with both, but on the second half: Does Grant know that?

Most General's didn't go on to be President.

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Thought this was an interesting idea, didn't want the thread to die.

I'm curious what the Stonewall Brigade (final scenario) would continue on to.
 
Most General's didn't go on to be President.

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Thought this was an interesting idea, didn't want the thread to die.

I'm curious what the Stonewall Brigade (final scenario) would continue on to.

Not sure what Grant becoming president has to do with what he knows of Nashville weather conditions.

As for the Stonewall Brigade:

Where is an additional brigade relative to OTL coming from? And how is it arriving on time (without bumping some other brigade to later, say Bartow - although that means only a small part of Thomas's brigade is up).

The only other brigade "full of Virginians" I can imagine THomas getting in Johnston's Army of the Shenandoah is the one that OTL went to Elzey, and it arrived late .

I don't mean to pick at nits, but this is a more than minor detail in this context.
 
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