"Gentlemen, we shall fight this war with the tools we have at hand!"

[Sazzer]

In what would be a massive change in the way that the Nazi government runs its war effort, what if at some point let’s say just after the Battle of Britain and just before Operation Barbarossa the realisation sets in that this will not be a quick war, there is a general meeting of the heads of department in which they look at the resources available and in a moment of sobriety the decision is taken ‘We shall fight this war with the tools we have at hand’.

Design and development will still go ahead but it will not be the free for all that it turned into, it will be more controlled with the more shall we say outlandish ideas being shelved, they basically do the same as the Allies and concentrate on numbers of proven weapons alongside realistic weapons development.

Cooler minds point out the short comings of the more exotic and expensive weapons programmes such as rockets, jets, aircraft carriers, heavy tanks, various assault rifles etc....

The Kriegsmarine accepts that its surface fleet cannot go toe to toe with the RN and scraps plans for its aircraft carriers and big battleships realising that they could never get a good return on their investment deciding instead to concentrate on its numbers of submarines, cruisers & destroyers etc...

The Luftwaffe knowing it has excellent fighters in the FW 190 and Me 109 does not invest as many resources into the more ambitious jet fighter programmes.

The Heer slim lines its plans for assault rifles, heavy artillery, ultra heavy tanks etc.

Money and resources will be ploughed into proven weapons which will be upgraded to a logical conclusion before being replaced.

Development of newer weapons continues but it’s no longer companies throwing unlimited resources at pet projects they have to be sensible and decide to pursue the most viable options basically German war production becomes much more efficient by not chasing pipe dreams.

What would be the effect on the war and the post war world (I’m thinking the space programme and inter-continental missile programmes would take a bit of a hit)?

 

[Riain]

The British bring the Meteor into service and the proven German fighters get torn to shreds.

 

[Sazzer]

Can’t really see that happening, the Brits wouldn’t really be in any hurry to bring the Meteor into service and as in the original timeline they probably would keep them back so the technology wouldn’t fall into German hands. On top of that I did say that German weapons development would continue just not as chaotically so they probably would still be developing say the Heineken 280.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

So... inrelation to the OP's start.

We see (Possibly) sloped armor Pz IV's?
Changing production of Pz III's to Stugs earlier?

Heck, with the above it makes me want to ask Claymore about the possibility of a 'Jagd Panther' style layout for the Pz IV.....

Also... would development of things like the Me 210 he shelved?

Would the development of machines such as the Do 335 proceed in a more 'Continuous' kind of style and not in the fits and starts as in history?

How might this effect the different branches and departments cross comunicating?

 

[tomo pauk]

So we're talking about the process that starts from winter of 1940/41. For Luftwaffe - no Bf 210, Ju 288 and He 177 flops. Leaves more DB 601s, so install those on Fw 190s, and/or sell the engines to the Italians so they can make more MC.202s and Re.2001s. No Jumo 222 fiasco is another boon for the Axis cause, Jumo can produce more/better Ju 211s.
All of this cancelling means there is no really awesome bomber around. Attach a bomb panier on the Ju 88 three years earlier than in OTL (along with the BMW 801)? Though the Do 217 is just entering production, so there will be enough of decent bomb luggers around.

No Tiger is a good thing, Panther is gone too? Okay, the Pz IV will get a superstructure and carry a big cannon around.
No impractical artillery means that Heer has more artillery pieces that are actually useful. No whacking big AA pieces might help seeing the light (= AAA plays second fiddle to fighter aircraft).

 

[The Red]

In what would be a massive change in the way that the Nazi government runs its war effort, what if at some point let’s say just after the Battle of Britain and just before Operation Barbarossa the realisation sets in that this will not be a quick war,

If that’s the case then it’s likely that Barbarossa doesn’t go ahead at all. The entire basis of the operation was that it would quickly destroy the Soviet Union. If it’s accepted that Germany will have the majority of her efforts bogged down in the Soviet Union for years then the notion of invading the Soviet Union is going to be far less appealing.

 

[eltf177]

What about Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek?

 

[James Ricker]

The big changes for the luffwaffa would be better bombers and a dedicated air superiority fighter show up in 1943.
For the Heer more artillery and more tanks.
End result the Germans inflict more damage before going down.They last 3-6 months out of fuel ,overwhelmed by sheer numbers and nuclear weapons.
But the Germans will lose more people in the end.

 

[Riain]

Can someone please quantify the opportunity cost of some of these failed weapons?

Were factories set up and then sat idle for the likes of the Me210/410 and other conventional weapons failures? Or was it more like the He177, significant numbers were built but they were complete shit?

I would point out that Germany has a greater need for cutting edge weapons and doctrine since they can't match the Allies in numbers, matching them in weapons quality is still going to see them soundly defeated

 

[Sazzer]

We see (Possibly) sloped armor Pz IV's?
Changing production of Pz III's to Stugs earlier?

Loving the idea of a slope armoured Pz IV

Compared to...

(Found images on tinternet)

 

[Dave Howery]

just before Barbarossa? Isn't that campaign going to change this determination? AIUI, the capabilities of the T-34 were rather a shock, and the German attempts at new tanks were in response to this. They can upgrade the existing PZ3s and 4s, but only so far. I'd think that sooner or later, the Germans are going to want to design a new tank from scratch to deal with the increasingly better Russian tanks...

 

[Sazzer]

just before Barbarossa? Isn't that campaign going to change this determination? AIUI, the capabilities of the T-34 were rather a shock, and the German attempts at new tanks were in response to this. They can upgrade the existing PZ3s and 4s, but only so far. I'd think that sooner or later, the Germans are going to want to design a new tank from scratch to deal with the increasingly better Russian tanks...

They're still going to be upgrading existing weapons and developing new ones, it's just about doing away with the crazies, the V's, the aircraft carrier, the plethora of different assault rifles, the multitude of luftwaffe '46 etc......

Basically they've acknowledged that they've failed to knock GB out of the fight and sooner or later they'll be back with new friends and they know that they can't put off their next job Russia.

1940/41 is where they are going to make it known that only realistic and affordable options are going to go forward in development, it's here that they're putting a stop to wasting resources on crackpot ideas

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The British bring the Meteor into service and the proven German fighters get torn to shreds.

The Meteor had a number of issues during OTL WW2 that would preclude that. And it wouldn't be necessary given the performance of the late war Spits and Mosquito.

 

[Dave Howery]

They're still going to be upgrading existing weapons and developing new ones, it's just about doing away with the crazies, the V's, the aircraft carrier, the plethora of different assault rifles, the multitude of luftwaffe '46 etc......

was the Pz5 that much of a crazy idea? When you are designing a tank from scratch, you're going to run into some unforeseen problems; you can't predict them all. As I read once, 'when it worked, the Pz5 was a superb tank'... any new tank is going to have teething troubles...

 

[marathag]

What about Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek?

As OTL, they capture the US Bazooka in North Africa, and only slightly improve it.
Panzerfaust was developed as a cheaper way to deliver a hollow charge warhead, using black powder rather than smokeless powder for the same reason as their recoilless rifles were discontinued, too wasteful of propellant. BP was cheap and easy to make, and worked well enough

 

[Kirook]

If that’s the case then it’s likely that Barbarossa doesn’t go ahead at all. The entire basis of the operation was that it would quickly destroy the Soviet Union. If it’s accepted that Germany will have the majority of her efforts bogged down in the Soviet Union for years then the notion of invading the Soviet Union is going to be far less appealing.

But even smarter Nazis are still Nazis, and they won't be able to tolerate the idea of a Communist country existing at all, especially a Slavic one, and anyway they'll still want "lebensraum" for German "colonists". They may delay Barbarossa and prepare for it better, but sooner or later it will happen.

 

[Dupplin Muir]

I think you still have to assume that there'll be lots of wasted resources and bad choices in Germany's war-effort, because there certainly was in Britain and the US.

Can’t really see that happening, the Brits wouldn’t really be in any hurry to bring the Meteor into service and as in the original timeline they probably would keep them back so the technology wouldn’t fall into German hands. On top of that I did say that German weapons development would continue just not as chaotically so they probably would still be developing say the Heineken 280.

They might initially hold back the Meteor and Vampire, just as they did with Window, but they'll soon realise that there's no point in having an advantage if you don't exploit it. In any event it'd probably take the Germans a couple of years to copy the British engines and by then the war would be over.

Also 'Heineken 280'? A Freudian slip perhaps?

The Meteor had a number of issues during OTL WW2 that would preclude that.

The Meteor had perfectly acceptable handling qualities, as did the Vampire: they weren't perfect but the British had really high standards for such things so it doesn't mean that they weren't combat-worthy.

 

[Sazzer]

Also 'Heineken 280'? A Freudian slip perhaps?

Fair play, lol.

I can see Operation Paperclip being a pale imitation of itself with piston combat aircraft living on at least a decade longer but I'm sure the cold war would push aircraft development in a similar direction.

Can't help but think the Russians would have won the race to the moon

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The Meteor had perfectly acceptable handling qualities, as did the Vampire: they weren't perfect but the British had really high standards for such things so it doesn't mean that they weren't combat-worthy.

I remember the nacelle design being an issue, turns out when I looked it up the issue was drag, not handling related, so it just limited the top speed, an issue that wasn't fixed until after the war. So yeah, you're right, it would have been fine, but no fast than the piston engined aircraft available in 1944-45.

 

[Just Leo]

The Meteor had perfectly acceptable handling qualities, as did the Vampire: they weren't perfect but the British had really high standards for such things so it doesn't mean that they weren't combat-worthy.

The Meteor suffered yaw instability which preclude accurate gunnery. The fix came with a new tail on Meteor F.8, in time for Korea. Guns that malfunctioned meant that wing tipping V-1s became a tactic. It doesn't mean they weren't judged combat-worthy by people with low standards.