Generic Napoleonic victory thread

[BlackMage]

I'm amazed that this doesn't come up more often, personally. This could be because there's some big taboo on the issue which I've only just stumbled into, or it could just be that I'm rather ignorant. Either way, I think that time is due for a standard, generic Napoleonic Wars WI thread.

So:

1. Is there any way Napoleon's empire could have survived for a significant period of time?
2. Is there any way he could have defeated/conquered Britain?
3. How long could Napoleon's new European power structures have lasted?
4. Once/if he defeats Britain, what could/would he do next?

I'm rather a novice to this era of history (they simply don't teach anything but convicts in Australian schools). I realise that this is rather a n00bish thread to post, but I am, after all, an eternal n00b.

 

[sumwhereinCA]

i always thought actually invade Britain would be unlikely. unless the English fleet was thourghly destroyed. However in the even Napoleon did invade and conquer Britain. i think he would set up puppet kingdoms in Ireland, Scotland, and maybe Wales. England itself would be occupied.

 

[fhaessig]

So:

1. Is there any way Napoleon's empire could have survived for a significant period of time?

1. 
   
   Quite a few.
   The easiest : don't invade Russia
   Others :
   Don't go in Spain
   Go after russia more intelligently ( don't try to get everything in one campaign year )
   Break up prussia
   Get Amiens to last longer ( time was actually on Napoleon's side, even if he was not aware of it )
   
   Quite a few others, including Just ignore England ( if England has no continental ally, Napoleon can afford to give up the continental blocus until the british government falls; the RN is just a nuisance )
   
   
   
   

   [*]Is there any way he could have defeated/conquered Britain?

   Defeated as in beaten the british troops on the continent, definitely.
   Conquered, much more difficult. It would require either Fulton working for Napoleon or a Good french Navy. Either Suffren stays alive ( through the Terror! ) and active in the Navy untill he's 75 or Nelson changes side.
   
   
   

   [*]How long could Napoleon's new European power structures have lasted?

   Nearly indefinitely. Some of them are still in place, and not only in France.
   
   Of course, it depends a lot on which structure you speak about and that depends on when and how the wars end.
   
   

   [*]Once/if he defeats Britain, what could/would he do next?

   
   Most likely concentrate on reforming France, legally and industrially.

 

[Anaxagoras]

The Napoleonic Empire could indeed have survived and could have lasted into the modern day in some form or other. While I do not think it likely that Napoleon could have successfully invaded and conquered Britain (although it was not impossible), I think the situation could have changed sufficiently s that the British political will to go on with the war could have collapsed, bringing a peace party willing to negotiate with Napoleon.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Another basic thought occurs to me: What if Napoleon had listened more to Talleyrand? Even more, what if Napoleon hadn't made Talleyrand into an enemy? After all, it was largely due to Talleyrand's influence that Alexander moved Russia away from being a French ally and back towards being a French enemy.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

What ideas did Napoleon have for his empire?

Britannica mentions that the French attacked Algiers using a plan he made, so would he have gone for the Maghreb?

One source mentions an idea he had of forging a Franco-Turco-Persian alliance against Russia, which would have also permitted him to attack India. What friends could he find in the subcontinent? Could he have tried a more limited war against Russia, aimed at simply liberating the lost Polish territories rather than a pointless occupation of Moscow?

Or let's reverse with Russia and Turkey. I assume he'd attack Egypt again. What would he do with the Balkans if he had the Ottomans as enemies and the Russians as associates more than allies?

How about North America? Louisiana is probably beyond his power to keep, but what of Haiti?

 

[Thande]

What ideas did Napoleon have for his empire?

Well, if Britain could be permanently neutralised (I don't necessarily mean defeated, but if the RN's dominance of the high seas could be curtailed) then Napoleon had plans for overseas colonies. Everyone knows about the attempt to reconquer Haiti, but there was also a less well known 1802 plan OTL to try and claim western Australia as a French colony. India will remain a target, but I'm not sure if Boney wanted to do it by some grand Alexandrian overland invasion via the Ottomans and Persia, or by other means.

 

[BlackMage]

Well, if Britain could be permanently neutralised (I don't necessarily mean defeated, but if the RN's dominance of the high seas could be curtailed) then Napoleon had plans for overseas colonies. Everyone knows about the attempt to reconquer Haiti, but there was also a less well known 1802 plan OTL to try and claim western Australia as a French colony. India will remain a target, but I'm not sure if Boney wanted to do it by some grand Alexandrian overland invasion via the Ottomans and Persia, or by other means.

Really? Western Australia? As a settler colony, or just as an overseas possession? Do you have any links?

 

[Thande]

Really? Western Australia? As a settler colony, or just as an overseas possession? Do you have any links?

The only place I've found a reference to it was in the Penguin Atlas of World History Volume II, which is usually highly reliable.

 

[BlackMage]

The only place I've found a reference to it was in the Penguin Atlas of World History Volume II, which is usually highly reliable.

Fascinating. Did it just say 'Western Australia', or did it imply some greater measure? I mean, in 1802, everything west of Sydney Cove was 'Western Australia'...and Napoleon never struck me as the type to stop at arbitrary lines.

Interesting hypothetical: if Britain is invaded, what happens to the Empire? Even if the consensus is that it's very difficult, were there plans for what to do with Canada, Australia, India, etc?

 

[MrP]

The only place I've found a reference to it was in the Penguin Atlas of World History Volume II, which is usually highly reliable.

There's a mention here of a scientific study, which could've been cover for a military reconnaissance.

The French, under instruction by Napoleon Bonaparte, undertook a significant scientific voyage of discovery between 1801 and 1803. Led by Commander Nicolas Baudin on the Géographe, and assisted by Baron Hamelin on the Naturaliste, a 22-man scientific complement visited Western Australia and Tasmania, collecting and returning to France 200 000 specimens of native flora and fauna. On his return to France in 1804, Louis de Freycinet, a midshipman on the Géographeduring Baudin’s voyage, published the first complete map of the Australian coastline, based on data from the voyage, together with maps and drawings of significant historical and cultural interest in Australia. (In 1818, Freycinet made one of the last pre-European-settlement voyages to WA. One of his main purposes was to collect the Vlamingh plate,which had been left behind by Hamelin. He took it to Paris, where it remained until 1947 when the French government presented it to the Australian people. It is now in the WA Maritime Museum.)

 

[Faeelin]

What ideas did Napoleon have for his empire?

Britannica mentions that the French attacked Algiers using a plan he made, so would he have gone for the Maghreb?

My guess is no. Egypt is there, waiting for his return. Earlier promotion of cotton, to feed French textile mills? Could be fun.

Could he have tried a more limited war against Russia, aimed at simply liberating the lost Polish territories rather than a pointless occupation of Moscow?

Here's the problem, as I see it. The Russians didn't treat with Bonaparte in Moscow, why would they do so if he's in Vilnus?

How about North America? Louisiana is probably beyond his power to keep, but what of Haiti?

I'd like to say he learned his lesson, but after spain....

 

[Ofaloaf]

I doubt Napoleon would be able to successfully conquer Britain. His forces were a bit stretched, and there'd probably be partisan fighting at least on-par with that of the Spaniards. His plan to land troops on British soil (let's call the hypothetical plan Opération Otarie, d'accord?) would probably be screwed over in by the time the first French ships were halfway accorss the Channel. It took a fair bit longer to assemble a force back then and there, and so the British forces would have plenty of time to shore up extra defences.

 

[sumwhereinCA]

if he instead lands in Ireland he would probally hav better success

 

[MrP]

I doubt Napoleon would be able to successfully conquer Britain. His forces were a bit stretched, and there'd probably be partisan fighting at least on-par with that of the Spaniards. His plan to land troops on British soil (let's call the hypothetical plan Opération Otarie, d'accord?) would probably be screwed over in by the time the first French ships were halfway accorss the Channel. It took a fair bit longer to assemble a force back then and there, and so the British forces would have plenty of time to shore up extra defences.

Don't over-estimate British defences. It's the wooden wall and then a load of fencibles and militia - not the sort of stuff that could realistically repel a proper army-level assault. It'd be tricky to get across the Channel, but once he'd managed that with a few corps . . .