General Precolonial Philippines Ideas Thread

I believe for unification, in Luzon, there must be simple tech like wheel, the field engineering absent in precolonial times. Most of these tech in OTL were brought by the Spanish.

So we need an earlier and deeper Chinese involvement.

Unification in Visayas means some sort of a navy, thassalocracy.

How about stronger links with Polynesians?

In Mindanao, population with a sense of rationality. And the Moros wont be able to unify Mindanao until they actually culturally change/mature like the Vikings and move away from piracy/raiding and treat their neighbors as vassals rather something to pluck from and discard. My prediction is if the Moros dont change, they will end up far worse in OTL where a Hindu/Buddhist or Pagan state will eradicate them from existence and then unify Mindanao.

Or maybe they become assimilated later on.

The Chinese must actually bring their civilization to the Luzon not just trade which includes these simple tech. Absent of these simple techs including cultural/social maturity, there is no chance to unify those three major islands.

I agree.
 
I believe for unification, in Luzon, there must be simple tech like wheel, the field engineering absent in precolonial times. Most of these tech in OTL were brought by the Spanish. Unification in Visayas means some sort of a navy, thassalocracy. In Mindanao, population with a sense of rationality. And the Moros wont be able to unify Mindanao until they actually culturally change/mature like the Vikings and move away from piracy/raiding and treat their neighbors as vassals rather something to pluck from and discard. My prediction is if the Moros dont change, they will end up far worse in OTL where a Hindu/Buddhist or Pagan state will eradicate them from existence and then unify Mindanao.

The Chinese must actually bring their civilization to the Luzon not just trade which includes these simple tech. Absent of these simple techs including cultural/social maturity, there is no chance to unify those three major islands.

No, not Chinese but the Majapahitans, what we need is that Luzon must be an attractive place for the Hindus of Majapahit to continue to immigrate to the time of the destruction of Majapahit, what we need is for the Bruneians not to invade for starters..

The wheel was not really practical for Luzon, before the roads were built..because most of the population lived beside rivers.
 
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Well, it should be possible, actually. I understand what you're saying but I really thought of an ethnolingustic group that could possibly change the course of pre-colonial Philippine history because of the fact they spoke a direct descendant of proto-Philippine language.

(They said that the Amis (Kavalan and Ketagalan included) was said to be closely related to Filipinos , but I don't think if they could actually fit in the said category because their language belongs to East Formosan group)

Well the main reason that the Philippine languages evolved differently from each other is that the outside influence was not even, some are more influenced or less influence like in Cagayan Valley and Pampanga river basins were linguistically influenced by Majapahit, Medang and Sri Vijaya and had some Malay/Javanese settlement that is why their language resembles Malay and Javanese.
 
No, not Chinese but the Majapahitans, what we need is that Luzon must be an attractive place for the Hindus of Majapahit to continue to immigrate to the time of the destruction of Majapahit, what we need is for the Bruneians not to invade for starters..

If the Majapahit are eager to survive, they won't choose their refuge.

And how to prevent the Bruneian conquest? A threat to the south and west, perhaps?

The wheel was not really practical for Luzon, before the roads were built..because most of the population lived beside rivers.

Initially, yes. But as cities grow, so are the need for efficient modes of transportation. Building roads and other infrastructure are inevitable for an ever-expanding polity.
 
If the Majapahit are eager to survive, they won't choose their refuge.

And how to prevent the Bruneian conquest? A threat to the south and west, perhaps?
If Sulu destroys Brunei in the beginning and/or Tondo and Calatagan both decline earlier, the Majapahit empire is crumbling and the Muslim polities that converted that used to be a part of it are destroying it so there is no chance of it surviving, if the Portuguese were more aggressive due to a union with Castile there would be no Hindus in Bali - the Hindus could be redirected to Luzon and Interior Borneo.

I think Tondo acted as an intermediary between Majapahit and China..


Initially, yes. But as cities grow, so are the need for efficient modes of transportation. Building roads and other infrastructure are inevitable for an ever-expanding polity.

But what we need is population growth...majority of the population of Luzon which are in Metro-Luzon are partly descendants of immigrants from other parts of the country and overseas, without these we will have a smaller population.
 
I forgot the FACT that one of the wives of the founder of Majapahit is from Luzon, the ruler of Namayan named Sasaban..:D we could have some mongols settle in Manila due to Raden Wijaya being allied with the Mongols
 
If Sulu destroys Brunei in the beginning and/or Tondo and Calatagan both decline earlier, the Majapahit empire is crumbling and the Muslim polities that converted that used to be a part of it are destroying it so there is no chance of it surviving, if the Portuguese were more aggressive due to a union with Castile there would be no Hindus in Bali - the Hindus could be redirected to Luzon and Interior Borneo.

So you propose that Brunei gets screwed before it even rises?


But what we need is population growth...majority of the population of Luzon which are in Metro-Luzon are partly descendants of immigrants from other parts of the country and overseas, without these we will have a smaller population.

How do you create a powerful kingdom without a large population base?
 
Well the main reason that the Philippine languages evolved differently from each other is that the outside influence was not even, some are more influenced or less influence like in Cagayan Valley and Pampanga river basins were linguistically influenced by Majapahit, Medang and Sri Vijaya and had some Malay/Javanese settlement that is why their language resembles Malay and Javanese.
Well, while the development of individual Philippine languages would be inevitable in my proposed scenario, the court of the local leaders would still communicate to both each other and to the royal court in the capital in let's say Namayan language (direct descendant of the proto-Philippine language) because the political model was mandala (like in Khmer/Angkor Empire and pre-Chulalongkorn Thailand), even in the partially Sinified political entities in the north.
 
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But what we need is population growth...majority of the population of Luzon which are in Metro-Luzon are partly descendants of immigrants from other parts of the country and overseas, without these we will have a smaller population.

We actually dont know the exact figures of what Philippine population was in pre 1570s. When the Spanish officially colonized Philippines in 1565, Luzon specifically just came from two war of conquests, Brunei and Spain. Which in turn can disrupt trade of food including growth of crops due to war.

And Spanish population counting back then was thru baptism. Not necessarily census.

According to this, 8M was the estimated population of Philippines in 1500:

http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map8_ver5.pdf

Although Philippine natives did had certain immunities from the old world due to contact with China, local immunity wasnt like in Japan from what I read:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10405020. So, the diseases brought by the Spanish can depopulate the islands.

We can actually figure out first what the population of the islands first before prehispanic time, or at least have an educated guess.
 
We actually dont know the exact figures of what Philippine population was in pre 1570s. When the Spanish officially colonized Philippines in 1565, Luzon specifically just came from two war of conquests, Brunei and Spain. Which in turn can disrupt trade of food including growth of crops due to war.

And Spanish population counting back then was thru baptism. Not necessarily census.

According to this, 8M was the estimated population of Philippines in 1500:

http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map8_ver5.pdf

Although Philippine natives did had certain immunities from the old world due to contact with China, local immunity wasnt like in Japan from what I read:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10405020. So, the diseases brought by the Spanish can depopulate the islands.

We can actually figure out first what the population of the islands first before prehispanic time, or at least have an educated guess.

Luzon, Mindanao and Sulu are certainly more closely tied to the outside world due to their Majapahit ties...

There were also genocides that the Spanish made against the tribes that remained pagan like they did to the Irraya and Bugkalot.

Well, while the development of individual Philippine languages would be inevitable in my proposed, the court of the local leaders would still communicate to both each other and to the royal court in the capital in let's say Namayan language (direct descendant of the proto-Philippine language) because the politial model was mandala (like in Khmer/Angkor Empire and pre-Chulalongkorn Thailand), even in the partially Sinified political entities in the north.

What is the craze of having the Philippines united, it is not a stable state even in OTL because of cultural gaps, the gap of Luzon, Mindanao and Sulu was due to the fact that they have far more links with the Malay world and interbreeded with the people of Sunda.
 
What is the craze of having the Philippines united, it is not a stable state even in OTL because of cultural gaps, the gap of Luzon, Mindanao and Sulu was due to the fact that they have far more links with the Malay world and interbreeded with the people of Sunda.
We know what you mean, but why feel bad if someone fantasized of a mostly unified pre-colonial Philippines, though under a mandala system: such political system could developed either within Luzon or it includes Visayan islands and northern Mindanao, as long as it depends in the scenario.
 
We know what you mean, but why feel bad if someone fantasized of a mostly unified pre-colonial Philippines, though under a mandala system: such political system could developed either within Luzon or it includes Visayan islands and northern Mindanao, as long as it depends in the scenario.

Luzon and Sulu were under the Mandala of Majapahit but the Islamization and the Bruneian conquests broke it.

So basically without the bornean conquest if Majapahit falls in its main core areas to the muslims and portuguese, Luzon would be the only remaining part of that Mandala.
 
HELPPPPPPPPPPP

So I'm writing a TL about a general Asia-wank (in my signature), and I realized that the world doesn't have nearly enough Philippine wanks. The problem is: the Philippines didn't exist back in 1150.

Any help?
 
HELPPPPPPPPPPP

So I'm writing a TL about a general Asia-wank (in my signature), and I realized that the world doesn't have nearly enough Philippine wanks. The problem is: the Philippines didn't exist back in 1150.

Any help?

Tondo was allied to Medan at that time, that is the only info we know.
 
HELPPPPPPPPPPP

So I'm writing a TL about a general Asia-wank (in my signature), and I realized that the world doesn't have nearly enough Philippine wanks. The problem is: the Philippines didn't exist back in 1150.

Any help?

How about an earlier maritime expansion?
 
HELPPPPPPPPPPP

So I'm writing a TL about a general Asia-wank (in my signature), and I realized that the world doesn't have nearly enough Philippine wanks. The problem is: the Philippines didn't exist back in 1150.

Any help?

Asia-wank means Philippines becomes a part of the Chinese or Indian cultural sphere. Or part of the eastern half of Dar al-Islam. Either way, the "Philippines" does not exist, but rather something completely different. Perhaps a mere extension of a Bruneian or Banjarmasin hegemonic empire. Perhaps the southernmost tip of the Chinese cultural sphere. Perhaps both, considering how disparate the cultures of our nation were before the Spanish.

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As a nation, the Philippines was born in 1565 and reached its coming of age in 1898. Unfortunately, most label the centuries between these as mere "Spanish oppression". Which is incredibly unfair and unnuanced. There was oppression, yes, and it was a colony with all that that implies, but there was also a lot of history in which we were bound to the fates of the Spanish empire and Catholicism in East Asia, and through them the world at large. None of this would have happened without Spain.

If Nagasaki was the East Asian Rome, then Manila and Cebu were the Jerusalem and Antioch.

But anyway, that's stuff for historiography. We're talking about the region before 1565. So...

The only PoD I can think of is Sultan Bolkiah's invasion. All the other sources readily available just feel too unreliable. Like trying to figure out a historical timeline for King Arthur.
 
I wonder why nobody thought of a Mongol "invasion" POD.

Let's say some ships of Yuan invasion fleet heading to Java got struck by a storm, drifts away, and lands somewhere in Luzon.
 
I wonder why nobody thought of a Mongol "invasion" POD.

Let's say some ships of Yuan invasion fleet heading to Java got struck by a storm, drifts away, and lands somewhere in Luzon.

Oh damn, you're right! That would be hilarious, a Mongol thalassocracy that ends up dominating the Malay archipelago.
 
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