Gender Switch for Nicholas II's Kids

Hey guys, this is my first thread and I'm unsure if this is the correct subform, but I recently was thinking of this question and I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts.

Nicholas II, the last Tsar of Russia, famously had 5 children: Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and hemophiliac Alexei. While the Tsar's personal life was one of many factors in his demise, I wonder how his reign would play out if, instead of having one sickly son he and Alexandra are desperate to keep alive to prevent his unpopular uncle and cousin from taking the throne, Nicky and Alix quickly have 4 sons, 3 of whom are healthy, to secure the succession and win Alexandra some popularity.

For simplicity's sake, lets say these alt children have similar base personalities to their OTL counterparts, with some variation due to gender, role, and changes in family fortune. Due to this 3 sons are healthy (the male versions of Olga, Tatiana, and either Maria or Anastasia), the remaining son is a hemophiliac, and their only daughter is a carrier

The kids are:
  1. Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich (OTL GD Olga)- 1895
  2. Grand Duke Pavel Nikolaevich (OTL GD Tatiana)- 1897
  3. Grand Duke Alexander Nikolaevich (OTL GD Maria, possible hemophiliac)- 1899
  4. Grand Duke George Nikolaevich (OTL GD Anastasia, Possible hemophiliac) -1901
  5. Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna (OTL Alexei, hemophilia carrier)- 1904
 
Hey guys, this is my first thread and I'm unsure if this is the correct subform, but I recently was thinking of this question and I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts.

Nicholas II, the last Tsar of Russia, famously had 5 children: Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and hemophiliac Alexei. While the Tsar's personal life was one of many factors in his demise, I wonder how his reign would play out if, instead of having one sickly son he and Alexandra are desperate to keep alive to prevent his unpopular uncle and cousin from taking the throne, Nicky and Alix quickly have 4 sons, 3 of whom are healthy, to secure the succession and win Alexandra some popularity.

For simplicity's sake, lets say these alt children have similar base personalities to their OTL counterparts, with some variation due to gender, role, and changes in family fortune. Due to this 3 sons are healthy (the male versions of Olga, Tatiana, and either Maria or Anastasia), the remaining son is a hemophiliac, and their only daughter is a carrier

The kids are:
  1. Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich (OTL GD Olga)- 1895
  2. Grand Duke Pavel Nikolaevich (OTL GD Tatiana)- 1897
  3. Grand Duke Alexander Nikolaevich (OTL GD Maria, possible hemophiliac)- 1899
  4. Grand Duke George Nikolaevich (OTL GD Anastasia, Possible hemophiliac) -1901
  5. Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna (OTL Alexei, hemophilia carrier)- 1904
I doubt this will change the revolution, it was coming one way ore another.
 
Well the one issue you have is there will be significantly less pressure on Nicholas and Alexandra - the failure to produce an heir was an issue for Alexandra's initial unpopularity and Alexei's health was a contributory factor in their isolation from court and society and family.
A tranche of healthy heirs will make a difference in that sense - probably not enough of a change to prevent what happened - it also might mean that Nicholas might be less rigid in his treatment of other family members in particular his brother and cousins.
The heir for example will probably serve during the war which will certainly help the image of the imperial family - also no Rasputin.
An adult heir and a spare during the war might mean that Nicholas' can avoid putting the government into his wife's hands which made a bad situation worse - it might not save the monarchy but it might prolong its life
 
Agreed, healthy heirs means Rasputin doesn't get his hooks into Alexandra and hasten the downfall of the Romanov's.

Still, Nicholas II's poor performance as Tsar must be fixed. Avoiding World War I would also help a lot...
 
Agreed, healthy heirs means Rasputin doesn't get his hooks into Alexandra and hasten the downfall of the Romanov's.

Still, Nicholas II's poor performance as Tsar must be fixed. Avoiding World War I would also help a lot...

Delaying Alexander III's death would help no end. Nicholas was profoundly unprepared to become Tsar.
 
100% agreed, Alexander needs to forget teaching Nicholas court etiquette first and concentrate on teaching him how to be a good ruler...

Definitely agree, and that could be a possible POD for a timeline like this. Alexander III looks close to death (hence him and his wife giving into Nicky's desire to marry Alix) but he pulls through and even if he doesn't live too much longer, the near death experience could be the reality check to make Alexander finally teach Nicky.

Also, while Alix is never going to be the social butterfly her mother in law was, having time to adjust to the role as the mere wife of the heir, as well as winning respect by birthing 4 sons in 8 years, might win her enough popularity in St.Petersburg to keep the couple from being so isolated. (Not to say Alexandra would suddenly adore court life, but she might not view it as disdainfully if she views them as supporting her).

Let's assume that butterflying Alexander III's death by a couple years and giving Nicky some healthy sons creates an environment where the monarchy makes it post 1917 (whether there is or is not WWI) either in its autocratic entirety or in some reduced manner. Who do you see as potential brides for the Romanov children? While the candidates might be different from those IOTL due to butterflies I assume a top candidate for the Tsarevich (or one of his brothers) could be a daughter of George V (either Princess Mary or an ATL sister). Another option would be one of the Romanian children. While ATL Olga is likely too young for Carol, I could see Maria (OTL Queen of Yugoslavia) being offered to one of the Grand Dukes. Olga likely becomes an attractive bride for several baltic royal families, particularly Prince Paul of Greece.
 
The kids are:
  1. Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich (OTL GD Olga)- 1895
  2. Grand Duke Pavel Nikolaevich (OTL GD Tatiana)- 1897
  3. Grand Duke Alexander Nikolaevich (OTL GD Maria, possible hemophiliac)- 1899
  4. Grand Duke George Nikolaevich (OTL GD Anastasia, Possible hemophiliac) -1901
  5. Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna (OTL Alexei, hemophilia carrier)- 1904

It might be interesting if the hemophiliac son was the oldest. With three younger healthy brothers, Nicky and Alix might prepare both Alexei and Pavel to rule.

If you look at what we know of their personalities, which is far more than we know of most historical figures!, (OTL) Olga and Tatiana do seem to have had the personalities most suited to ruling, Tatiana even more so. As boys, they would have been far less sheltered and received an education more like OTL Alexei but obviously earlier, so I think either could have been decent rulers, probably better than their father, anyway.

I could see Alexander making a domestic match given OTL Maria expressing a desire to have ten children.

ATL Olga seems like she’s turn out to be something of a mix of OTL Anastasia and Alexei, which would be fun to explore.

Out of curiosity, what are you hoping to do with the Romanovs? Do you see them avoiding World War I/the overthrow of their dynasty/just a delay? What do you want to explore with the ATL kids?
 
What if Nicholas abdicates in favor of his Son in 1917?

Would a 1905 abdication and regency be possible?

What happens in a parallelistic universe where Grand Duke Pavel is captured by the Central Powers early in the Great War and the Bolsheviks still end up executing the rest of the family?
 
Last edited:
I don't know if the Tsar would have as many children if his first child was male. The couple had as many children as they did because the Russian people wanted a male heir to the Tsar's throne. If a son is born first, the Tsarina wouldn't turn to mysticism anywhere near as quickly or as faithfully as OTL - it was her want of a strong heir that helped her meet "Dr." Philippe Vachot, who helped her become a strong believer of mysticism.

What if Nicholas abdicates in favor of his Son in 1917?...

Nicholas certainly would try. It wouldn't work though, as IOTL, he appointed his brother Michael Alexandrovich in his abdication; it soon became clear that a fair amount of the Russian people didn't only hate Nicholas and Alix, they wanted monarchy gone, period.
 
To be fair Alexandra's interest in mysticism was in part due to the fashion for it - the only members of the Imperial family who she didn't offend and rebuff early on were her sisters in law (Xenia and Olga) and the Montenegrin princesses turned Grand Duchesses who were fascinated by this type of thing. Also Alexandra had been reluctant to marry despite her affection because of her deep faith - that meant on conversion she found herself deeply attracted to the elements of that kind of thing within Orthodoxy - like many converts she became a very zealous practitioner of the faith.
A son first time out of the gate so to speak might have reduced that a bit.
The biggest problem for Nicholas was not that he was unable to rule (he had some grounding under his father) but that his education had simply prepared him to be a carbon copy of his father - without his father's dominating personality. Nicholas' failure was really that of his parents - Alexander and Marie in particular babied their children (both Marie and her sister Alexandra treated their children as babies well into middle age - read Alexandra's letters to George V for an example) - compounded by the woman he married.
Alexandra had very firm views and managed to offend people irrespective of her repeated failure to provide a son.
Nicholas and his wife managed to drive a wedge between the crown and those who served it and his own family - trying to act the Emperor with the family but failing to impose control as his father had done (the mess with Kyril's marriage to Victoria, refusing Michael's desire to marry and then his harshness when Michael married his mistress etc, the treatment of his uncle Paul Alexandrovitch etc)
Nicholas was determined to rule as his father had done as an autocrat he had no truck with his constitutional cousins in Denmark, Greece and Great Britain, his wife backed him up - so every attempt at reform, even after 1905, was destined to fail due in part to the Emperor's view that any reform betrayed both his father and his coronation oath.
A healthy heir might have given the Imperial family an option to act when it became clear that Nicholas and Alexandra were on the road to destruction - which became very apparent during the First World War - i OTL the family failed to act in part because many of them felt tied to their oath of loyalty to the Emperor and because the alternatives weren't that great. It was the family's failure to act in 15,16, and 17 and their behaviour in the preceeding years that really meant that even moderates believed the monarchy was dead - the dynasty failed to save itself so no-one else could be bothered to try.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Hey guys, this is my first thread and I'm unsure if this is the correct subform, but I recently was thinking of this question and I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts.

Nicholas II, the last Tsar of Russia, famously had 5 children: Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and hemophiliac Alexei. While the Tsar's personal life was one of many factors in his demise, I wonder how his reign would play out if, instead of having one sickly son he and Alexandra are desperate to keep alive to prevent his unpopular uncle and cousin from taking the throne, Nicky and Alix quickly have 4 sons, 3 of whom are healthy, to secure the succession and win Alexandra some popularity.

For simplicity's sake, lets say these alt children have similar base personalities to their OTL counterparts, with some variation due to gender, role, and changes in family fortune. Due to this 3 sons are healthy (the male versions of Olga, Tatiana, and either Maria or Anastasia), the remaining son is a hemophiliac, and their only daughter is a carrier

The kids are:
  1. Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich (OTL GD Olga)- 1895
  2. Grand Duke Pavel Nikolaevich (OTL GD Tatiana)- 1897
  3. Grand Duke Alexander Nikolaevich (OTL GD Maria, possible hemophiliac)- 1899
  4. Grand Duke George Nikolaevich (OTL GD Anastasia, Possible hemophiliac) -1901
  5. Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna (OTL Alexei, hemophilia carrier)- 1904
One really interesting result is that if he has a healthy son in 1917 the October revolution basically doesn't happen

in OTL Nicholas II abdicated to his brother, but his brother didn't want the throne so power passed down to the rather illegitimate provisional government eventually led by Alexander Kerensky, and the rest is history.

If ATL Nicholas had a healthy, energetic son who succeed him he might have being able to rally enough of the army and the "right-wing" of Russian politics around him to stabilize a government in 1917. He might have even able to get some of the moderate left if he promises reforms, and unlike Kerensky he doesn't have to worry nearly as much about a coup from the right so the OTL "July days" doesn't happen. That alone would have being enough to prevent a Communist takeover, especially if he had the foresight to arrest/shoot enough of the Bolshevik leadership and make peace with the Germans.

So atl you might actually have had a Romanov Russian Empire under Pavel I emerging out of 1917 defeated with at least some of the territorial losses (probably at least congress Poland) but the majority of the empire and imperial government intact. Germany probably still loses on the western front and maybe the western powers demand independent Poland but then you have an imperial Russia going in the 1920s weakened but with most of its territory intact, that really really changes the course of world history.
 
Not necessarily - Nicholas' abdication was more a deposition it was made clear to him that the situation was deteriorating and in the interests of Russia and the Dynasty he had to go - everyone assumed he would abdicate in favour of Alexei - the moderate Michael would be appointed regent and the boy would probably have been placed in his grandmother's custody.
Nicholas changed his mind and abdicated for both himself and son - leaving the throne to Michael. It was probably illegal and the action of a father rather than a sovereign.
Michael Alexandrovitch was proclaimed Emperor in some locations at the front - he was shocked at Nicholas' decision and was advised that the government couldn't guarantee his safety or that of his wife and son - so he declined to succeed until a constituent assembly could chose a form of government for the Empire - that was then betrayed when the government proclaimed Russia a republic later.

If Nicholas has an adult male heir then he might find himself forced out earlier avoiding the revolution but that was simply not in Nicholas' character at all to step aside. His heir is likely to have been brought up in the same manner as Nicholas so probably not anymore flexible than his father or mother in political terms.

You want to avoid a revolution then Russia really has to avoid the First World War - her economy prior to the revolution was improving and despite Nicholas' loathing of the settlement he was forced to reach after the aborted 1905 revolution the country was certainly more settled politically - in fact many of the exiled left had a view that the opportunity for revolution had been lost.
Avoid the war you avoid Nicholas' fate being tied to that of Russia's military successes or disasters.
 
Welcome to the board :)

Another option would be one of the Romanian children. While ATL Olga is likely too young for Carol, I could see Maria (OTL Queen of Yugoslavia) being offered to one of the Grand Dukes. Olga likely becomes an attractive bride for several baltic royal families, particularly Prince Paul of Greece.

A Romanian match is unlikely at best, more so if there's still a haemophiliac prince. Queen Marie wasn't a favourite with many of her relatives (like Sophie, queen of the Hellenes who threatened her husband after the wedding of their respective children: "that WOMAN has to go! Either she leaves or I do!") but Alexandra wasn't popular with most of them (married or birth). Also, Marie was the one who nixed the match between Carol and Olga OTL by refusing to want Olga, since "the mother is horrid, her own son always near death, why would the daughter be anything different?" (Or something like that: she basically didn't want Olga as her daughter-in-law because she was afraid she carried the haemophilia "gene"). Plus, she didn't like Alexandra (and to a lesser extent Nikolai).
 
To be fair Marie was very ambitious for her children (and she was well-liked by her British cousins especially George V who had once wanted to marry her - her mother made sure it didn't happen as she didn't want her daughter to have a second place in the British Court - George's older brother still being alive at the time) - In OTL Olga didn't like Carol and Marie wasn't impressed with Olga - she didn't like her looks or her manner. There was a bit of ill-feeling between Marie and her siblings and the Imperial Couple - due to the issues surrounding Marie's sister Victoria (wife of the GD of Hesse and then Grand Duke Vladimir) and Princess Beatrice who had been banned from marrying Michael Alexandrovitch by Nicholas II.
 
To be fair Marie was very ambitious for her children (and she was well-liked by her British cousins especially George V who had once wanted to marry her - her mother made sure it didn't happen as she didn't want her daughter to have a second place in the British Court - George's older brother still being alive at the time) - In OTL Olga didn't like Carol and Marie wasn't impressed with Olga - she didn't like her looks or her manner. There was a bit of ill-feeling between Marie and her siblings and the Imperial Couple - due to the issues surrounding Marie's sister Victoria (wife of the GD of Hesse and then Grand Duke Vladimir) and Princess Beatrice who had been banned from marrying Michael Alexandrovitch by Nicholas II.

Thank you. I didn't know it was so complicated (I knew about the Maria Alexandrovna stopping a match vetween her daughter and George but not about the rest)
 
Yes - George was quite keen on the very young Missy and his father and her's were not averse but Marie Alexandrovna hated playing second fiddle to Alexandra of Denmark at the British Court and was determined her daughter wouldn't be in the same position and promptly found another candidate for her daughter.
Of course Marie's sister Victoria married the Empress Alexandra's brother and then after Queen Victoria's death they were divorced and she married Kyril Vladmirovitch much to Alexandra and Nicholas' displeasure. Beatrice and Michael had a brief romance in about 1902 I think - being first cousin's Nicholas forbade the marriage (killing the only equal romance Michael ever appeared interested in - I always think N must have regretted it given Michael moved on to a lady in waiting and finally Natalia Wulfurt) - the fallout was hurt feelings on all sides and the sister's always felt Beatrice had been wronged - Victoria learnt her lesson though and simply married Kyril without seeking permission from Nicholas (they were also first cousins).
 
This is a really interesting thread. I don't know that just switching the genders of Nicholas' children would have prevented the revolution, but I do think that it would have made it easier for Nicholas to transfer power to Alexei when he abdicated if Alexei had been in his twenties rather than a twelve year old. So, perhaps the Revolution would have hit but the dynasty might have continued in some form, perhaps as a constitutional monarchy. I think that if Alexei had been a first born but still been hemophiliac, it still could have triggered Alexandra's neurotic behavior, the search for healers (hence Rasputin) etc. I think that for the Revolution to have been averted completely, there would have to have been changes earlier in the dynasty (Alexander II surviving the assassination attempt that killed him in real life, or Alexander III better preparing Nicholas II for the throne, something like that...)
 
Top