Gemany V Russia (Alone) - who wins.


Came across this on youtube - thought I'd share.

Peace on 1940 seems a bit optimistic!

Don't though understand why still problems in Yugoslavia.

While the premise is one on one, unrealistic as a ATL, can't see why Finland wouldn't get involved, also Hungary and Romania, though Italy could be left out.

Later why shouldn't the Germans accept non-German 'volunteers'?

At the end - the peace doesn't look realistic either!

Comments observations.
 

Came across this on youtube - thought I'd share.

Peace on 1940 seems a bit optimistic!

Don't though understand why still problems in Yugoslavia.

While the premise is one on one, unrealistic as a ATL, can't see why Finland wouldn't get involved, also Hungary and Romania, though Italy could be left out.

Later why shouldn't the Germans accept non-German 'volunteers'?

At the end - the peace doesn't look realistic either!

Comments observations.
Could you sum it up pls
 

Came across this on youtube - thought I'd share.

Peace on 1940 seems a bit optimistic!

Don't though understand why still problems in Yugoslavia.

While the premise is one on one, unrealistic as a ATL, can't see why Finland wouldn't get involved, also Hungary and Romania, though Italy could be left out.

Later why shouldn't the Germans accept non-German 'volunteers'?

At the end - the peace doesn't look realistic either!

Comments observations.
This came across as Wehraboo nonsense. The Wallies magically decide to sell Germany unlimited amounts of oil. It was well into 1942 and the Nazis haven't just not started the final solution in this TL, they re-established the second Polish Republic' s eastern border, and gave the Ukrainian SSR independence. The more competent you make the alternate Nazi Germany, the less realistic it is to actual nazi behavior and ideology.
Its liking asking "what if imperial japan wasn't racist and they handed out rice mochi to nanking residents instead of raping and pillaging?" This video has as much realism as asking "how the cold war would change if Mao became a vegan libertarian after meeting Ayn Rand, then invited Chiang back to the mainland"
 
Last edited:
This came across as Wehraboo nonsense. The Wallies magically decide to sell Germany unlimited amounts of oil. It was well into 1942 the Nazis haven't just not started the final solution in this TL, they re-established the second Polish Republic' eastern border, and gave the Ukrainian SSR independence. The more competent you make the alternate Nazi Germany, the less realistic it is to actual nazi behavior and ideology.
Its liking asking "what if imperial japan wasn't racist and they handed out rice mochi to nanking residents instead of raping and pillaging?" This video has as much realism as asking "how the cold war would change if Mao became a vegan libertarian after meeting Ayn Rand, then invited Chiang back to the mainland"

Also, Winston Churchill is the "greatest warmonger in history". I'm not a fan of the guy but that was enough to set off the Wehraboo alert for me, particularly when you compare it with how he talks about Hitler.
 
This is a bunch of garbage. The video is neo Nazi revisionism and wish fulfillment at its finest.

I guess a more plausible set up could be that Britain peaces out in 1940-41 (somehow?) which leaves Germany versus the USSR scenario, but from what I can work out the Soviets are still going to be a tough nut to crack.
 
Last edited:
Not commenting on the video as I don't have time to watch it, but I've seen it said on here that without American lend lease the Soviets would be basically unable to survive. Even if they did survive, they would be unable to do anything except hold the line. Any offensive actions would be out of the question. In a head to head without preferential outside treatment to either side then I tend to think Germany comes out on top, maybe not in a total victory sort of way, but the Soviets won't be able to reverse German gains any time soon.
 
I said this in another thread, but the setup vs the Soviets the Germans got was basically the best one they could have realistically hoped for. Most of the Red Army on the border and not on alert, with large amounts of Soviet materiel flowing west to keep them flush until the day of the attack. They needed to win in the first year or they were fucked.

In a situation like this, with Britain supplying Germany, I don't think even Stalin could convince himself it's all a grand double bluff. A red army on the alert is one that stops the Germans on the Dniepr, and grinds them to dust in the years following.
 
Germany had extreme luck when they invaded the USSR. Soviet troops literally just stood there, which allowed the Germans to encircle hundreds of thousands, close to a million at one point, of troops. The Soviet Airforce was also decimated along it's western bases. Germany didn't keep that monument, for example Hitler ordered that Hermann's 5th Panzer Army move southward to assist Edwald von Kleist's Army cross the lower Don and push into the Caucasus, even though when he could've taken Stalingrad without much of a fight.
 
Not commenting on the video as I don't have time to watch it, but I've seen it said on here that without American lend lease the Soviets would be basically unable to survive. Even if they did survive, they would be unable to do anything except hold the line. Any offensive actions would be out of the question. In a head to head without preferential outside treatment to either side then I tend to think Germany comes out on top, maybe not in a total victory sort of way, but the Soviets won't be able to reverse German gains any time soon.
They managed many offensives in 1941 and 1942, all without American lend lease.
 
How many of them succeeded?

Winter offensive in 1941 certainly did and considering that it was only around September 1942 that significant forces started arriving via lend lease to the Soviet Union after the after the end of the First Protocol Period, it could easily be argue that the destruction of the 6th Army fits in this period. By that stage, the Germans were never going to win.

Losing the Finnish, Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian forces(as this going it alone thread implies) means Germany has very little chance of success. Romanian forces alone amount to 700,00 men in 1941 rising to 1.3 million later.
 
Last edited:
I think a key problem I've seen in these discussions is that people tend to see the Barbarossa operation OTL as baseline performance for the Wehrmacht, with victory against the USSR a foregone conclusion if only a few things are changed. Myself, I think it was a masterfully executed military endeavor under the best possible conditions that was also terribly overambitious and extremely misguided, politically speaking. Operation successful, patient dead, so to speak.
 

nbcman

Donor
This came across as Wehraboo nonsense. The Wallies magically decide to sell Germany unlimited amounts of oil. It was well into 1942 and the Nazis haven't just not started the final solution in this TL, they re-established the second Polish Republic' s eastern border, and gave the Ukrainian SSR independence. The more competent you make the alternate Nazi Germany, the less realistic it is to actual nazi behavior and ideology.
Its liking asking "what if imperial japan wasn't racist and they handed out rice mochi to nanking residents instead of raping and pillaging?" This video has as much realism as asking "how the cold war would change if Mao became a vegan libertarian after meeting Ayn Rand, then invited Chiang back to the mainland"
Oil? Oil wasn’t the most critical import from the Soviets. It was all the grain and meat/fats. The Germans could have muddled through a cold war with the UK without a large amount of oil but food shortages would bite faster.
 

Deleted member 1487

Winter offensive in 1941 certainly did and considering that it was only around September 1942 that significant forces started arriving via lend lease to the Soviet Union after the after the end of the First Protocol Period, it could easily be argue that the destruction of the 6th Army fits in this period. By that stage, the Germans were never going to win.

Losing the Finnish, Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian forces(as this going it alone thread implies) means Germany has very little chance of success. Romanian forces alone amount to 700,00 men in 1941 rising to 1.3 million later.
Define success then, because the Soviet offensives in winter 1941-42 pushed back the Germans, but failed in their stated goals pretty badly (i.e. the destruction of AG-Center or at least any single army within it). And yes the Soviet winter offensive of 1942 was a partial success (in that it smashed up AG-B, but failed to wipe out AG-A and of course Operation Mars was a disaster) and only after millions of tons of LL had already arrived.

Losing Axis minor support would hurt a lot, but remember without any other fronts half of the Wehrmacht not committed elsewhere would be available in the East. Seriously, the Wehrmacht was over 8 million men in 1941 and less than half were deployed in the East for Barbarossa, more than offsetting Axis minor powers. The DAK alone would be more effective than the Italian expeditionary force in Russia of 1941. Bulgarian forces were never used outside of Bulgaria BTW. If the Finns are neutral the more than 200,000 Germans in country and all the supplies they provided aren't used there. Hungarian forces in the East in 1941 were pretty minor, like the size of a corps. Romanian forces not being there would hurt, especially as a base of operations to project from, but if truly neutral than all the forces the Germans used to defend it and it's oil would be used offensively. The bigger issue is the restricted frontage and lack of staging areas from Axis minor allies rather than their armies even.
 
This came across as Wehraboo nonsense. The Wallies magically decide to sell Germany unlimited amounts of oil. It was well into 1942 and the Nazis haven't just not started the final solution in this TL, they re-established the second Polish Republic' s eastern border, and gave the Ukrainian SSR independence. The more competent you make the alternate Nazi Germany, the less realistic it is to actual nazi behavior and ideology.
Its liking asking "what if imperial japan wasn't racist and they handed out rice mochi to nanking residents instead of raping and pillaging?" This video has as much realism as asking "how the cold war would change if Mao became a vegan libertarian after meeting Ayn Rand, then invited Chiang back to the mainland"

If the Allies have peaced out the Nazis. Then the Nazis could just buy all the oil they need from the South American countries. After all it's not like the Nazis Germany lacks for gold reserves.
 
I'm not watching the video. But it can't really be a solo matchup. Poland and the Baltics are kinda of in the way. So perhaps Germany can start off a bit further east (but Soviets aren't caught halfway building a new defense line). Perhaps the intial front is limited, instead of being from the Baltic to the Black Sea. But it all depends on the exact scenerio. Did Germany manage to bully Poland into being a semi vassal, without having to share Poland and/or Baltics? OTL split but somehow the W Allies don't join? Do the Soviets still have the Winter War? Etc

Also just because Germany is at peace, doesn't mean they can import whatever they want. France and Britain can impose embargoes like Japan got slapped with. Germany has a lot of loans due payment. Their economy relied on a lot of looting, trickery and bartering, so it won't be as simple as just buying.
 
Oil? Oil wasn’t the most critical import from the Soviets. It was all the grain and meat/fats. The Germans could have muddled through a cold war with the UK without a large amount of oil but food shortages would bite faster.
Yeah, the food shortages would hurt them even more. Germany could and did use horse-drawn logistics instead of supply trucks due to oil shortages, but there's no substitute for food. The lack of agricultural self-sufficiency drove the brutality prepped for in the hunger plan.
 

Deleted member 1487

Yeah, the food shortages would hurt them even more. Germany could and did use horse-drawn logistics instead of supply trucks due to oil shortages, but there's no substitute for food. The lack of agricultural self-sufficiency drove the brutality prepped for in the hunger plan.
Sort of. The Germans used horses because they didn't produce enough trucks yet or have sufficient rubber for all the tires due to lack of access to natural sources. Horse logistics were heavily inferior to truck/tracked vehicle logistics and ended up carrying only a fraction of what the trucks did despite there being hundreds of thousands of them...but they were available and trucks weren't. Fuel stocks were there in 1941, though they were pretty heavily drawn down by 1942. As to food you're mostly on point, though the Hunger Plan was also part of their general genocidal and colonization plans; the food shortages provided a means to achieve their insane goals.
 
Top