Geiseric becomes Western Roman Emperor

Keenir

Banned
What if, after accepting the terms of Pope Leo ("you can take Rome's wealth, but leave its people"), the Vandal king Geiseric doesn't loot Rome...

...what if, instead, he has himself* made Emperor of the Western Roman Empire?
(and appointing his generals to prominent places in the government, to keep them from simply looting when they arrive in Rome)


thoughts?


* = or his son, already promised to marry the Princess Eudoxia.
 
No way... He wasnt Roman... If he made himself Emperor he would have turned the whole world against him... The nearest offices related to the Empire he can achieve is that of Patricius or Senator or Consul or (with the least chances from my point of view) Magister Militum... BUT NOT Emperor...
 
Agree whole heartedly. He could maybe get away with appointing his grandson by his son's marriage to the Imperial princess, but I don't think that he had the strength to hold Italy, so why bother trying? It was a lot more profitable to do what he did OTL, rape and pillage and be "God's punishment" to anyone who was unlucky enough to have the Vandal fleet blown their way.

His Arianism would also stand in the way. If the Emperor was going to be a barbarian (and Charlemagne was a barbarian) then he would have to at least have to be a Nicean Orthodox Christian (non-heretic, not Greek-rite).
 
Nah... Even his name (Hilderic) doesnt sound any Roman at all... No Roman Eastern or Western would have accepted him...

He could easily change it so some far more Roman, in a similar way to how barbarian princesses changed their name to something Greek when they married an emperor
 

Keenir

Banned
Agree whole heartedly. He could maybe get away with appointing his grandson by his son's marriage to the Imperial princess, but I don't think that he had the strength to hold Italy,

His Arianism would also stand in the way. If the Emperor was going to be a barbarian (and Charlemagne was a barbarian) then he would have to at least have to be a Nicean Orthodox Christian (non-heretic, not Greek-rite).

Why does his faith count as an obstacle? either he could take the Fatimid solution (convert after being his family's enthronement), or he could take the English solution (rule over those of a different denomination).

after all, at this point in time, the Pope didn't have his own armies...and the Eastern Roman Empire couldn't defeat Geiseric. so Geiseric might not've had the strength to hold Italy (against who?), but nobody else could've taken Italy from him.
 
Why does his faith count as an obstacle? either he could take the Fatimid solution (convert after being his family's enthronement), or he could take the English solution (rule over those of a different denomination).

Well, he isn't a Muslim, so the Fatimid solution wouldn't work (there is not a whole lot of "well Muslims did this so Christians should too," the religions may both by Abrahamic, but politically they evolved on two very different paths).

The English solution, well, see, the English did that what a thousand years later? In a thousand years of history, things tend to change.

I really shouldn't have used his faith right off the bat. The main reason he won't become Roman Emperor is because at this point in history you need to actually be Roman to become the Emperor. There was a clear ethnic line between the Romans (the ruled) and the German tribes (the rulers). This ethnic line was emphasized by the Germans by sticking to Arianism. A German tribal leader wouldn't claim the Emperorship until Charlemagne (and then it was only his lifetime, no heirs claimed the title) and then until Otto I. And that was hundreds of years down the line.

In addition to all of this Geiseric probably doesn't want to be Emperor. In the West the office had lost nearly all of its power, and the real power was powerful soldiers around the throne who commanded the armies and controlled government. The Romans were generally viewed as weak, and the German tribal kings were willing to dominate the weak, but not take on their titles. That is why when Rome finally fell the German leader who conquered it sent the Imperial regalia to Constantinople. He didn't want or need to be Roman Emperor.

after all, at this point in time, the Pope didn't have his own armies...and the Eastern Roman Empire couldn't defeat Geiseric. so Geiseric might not've had the strength to hold Italy (against who?), but nobody else could've taken Italy from him.

Actually the Eastern Roman Empire did have the strength and resolve to launch its own invasion of North Africa. In 468, 13 years after the sack of Rome, the last Western-Eastern Roman Empire combined military operation was launched, an attempt to retake North Africa from the Vandals. This shows that the Western Empire may have lost its old capital, but control of Rome did not demonstrate control of either the Empire or even Italy.

Geiseric, in order to make his claim of Emperor stick, would have to take Rome, then march north and take Ravenna. The other German tribes probably don't want Geiseric taking Italy and the Imperial throne, so you would see them intervene. The Eastern Roman Empire was still feeling some fraternal love for its Western brother and might send help. The Eastern Empire obviously wanted North Africa, so while Geiseric is off pursuing his mad dream of becoming Empire with the greater part of his fleet and army they could invade and take North Africa. The Pope doesn't really come into play here, because this is the end of the Roman Empire, everyone was ready and willing to fight over the last scraps.
 
The East deposed Johannes through a minimum amount of effort in favour of their own candidate. I'm sure they would have done the same if an Arian German had got similar ideas.
 

Keenir

Banned
Well, he isn't a Muslim, so the Fatimid solution wouldn't work

the Fatimids were Shia who - when they took over Egypt - became Sunni...which did not go over well with many of their supporters.

sorry for not clarifying.

(there is not a whole lot of "well Muslims did this so Christians should too," the religions may both by Abrahamic, but politically they evolved on two very different paths).

The English solution, well, see, the English did that what a thousand years later? In a thousand years of history, things tend to change.

I gave those examples so nobody would think I was making things up out of whole cloth.
 
What I was pointing out was that both examples that you used were not really relevant to this particular period of history. The Fatimid example because of religious issues, the English example because of the difference in historical periods.

Do you agree/disagree with the strategic issues that I raised? Your lack of response to that part of the post is most disappointing, since I feel like the strategic issues are the ones that really deep six the proposition of Geiseric as the Western Roman Emperor.
 

Keenir

Banned
I'm enjoying this discussion, friend.

What I was pointing out was that both examples that you used were not really relevant to this particular period of history. The Fatimid example because of religious issues, the English example because of the difference in historical periods.

true.
I guess my idea was that the Catholics in Rome might resign themselves to once more being ruled (in effect, even if Geiseric doesn't enthrone himself) by a non-Catholic.

Do you agree/disagree with the strategic issues that I raised?

I agree that those issues are indeed very important...but one can hope that ways can be found around them.

(ie, for a time, all Emperors had to be Italian...later, they were ruled by Trajan, an Iberian)

Your lack of response to that part of the post is most disappointing,

sorry; I had to leave for a meeting, and typed as much as I could.

The main reason he won't become Roman Emperor is because at this point in history you need to actually be Roman to become the Emperor. There was a clear ethnic line between the Romans (the ruled) and the German tribes (the rulers). This ethnic line was emphasized by the Germans by sticking to Arianism.

ah, okay.

I hadn't been sure what you meant.

hm, so either Geiseric converts (which not all Germans will appreciate), or he doesn't convert (which may stick in Romans' craws)


In addition to all of this Geiseric probably doesn't want to be Emperor.

did he want his son or grandson to be Emperor? (he did arrange his son's marriage, after all, before the events which led to his attack on Rome)

In the West the office had lost nearly all of its power, and the real power was powerful soldiers around the throne who commanded the armies and controlled government. The Romans were generally viewed as weak, and the German tribal kings were willing to dominate the weak, but not take on their titles.

hm....Geiseric as Lord Protector of the Western Roman Empire's Empress...and if his grandson is Emperor, all the good; if his grandson isn't, then the family continues as the power behind the throne.

...at least until another family becomes the Defenders of the Emperor.

(yeah, I'm remembering the thread about how to make the Roman Empire like Japan's)

Actually the Eastern Roman Empire did have the strength and resolve to launch its own invasion of North Africa.

I think the program addressed this...if you're referring to the Eastern Empire's overwhelming number of ships (many of which were burned by Vandals while on the open sea)

Geiseric, in order to make his claim of Emperor stick, would have to take Rome, then march north and take Ravenna.

at this point, wasn't Ravenna part of the Eastern Empire?

in any event, Geiseric might be willing to lose (temporarily?) the Empire north of the Alps, focusing instead on securing the Italian lands and keeping the breadbaskets of western North Africa.
 
true.
I guess my idea was that the Catholics in Rome might resign themselves to once more being ruled (in effect, even if Geiseric doesn't enthrone himself) by a non-Catholic.

They would resign themselves to be ruled by a non-Catholic, but even the Arian German tribal Kings who ruled them OTL maitained the legal fiction of the Empire. Theodoric, for instance, the King of the Ostrogoths, was also a Viceregent or some title, given to him by the Eastern Roman Empire. The Roman legal system was maintained and the Roman citizens were allowed to use it. The Germans were the military and maintained a parallel legal system in which Germans were tried. This dual system collapsed after Justinian's invasions, to be replaced with all people being ruled by the German system, ala the way the Franks did it, but that was much later. The point is that the Roman populace realized that they were to be ruled LOCALLY by the Germans, but that ultimate political (and, I guess, military) authority was in the Constantinople, with the REAL Roman Emperor.

The end result of my rant is that if Geiseric claiming the title of Roman Emperor would mean that he was trying to reach for a station that was quite beyond his legal and probably military reach. The Roman populace, who throughout this period of history just took it from the various German tribal kings who galavanted through their country, would not allow an Arian German barbarian to claim the Imperial regalia. They would fight/rebel and this in addition to the threat posed by other barbarian tribes (the Visigoths in Spain, the Burgundians in Southern Gaul, maybe the Huns, perhaps the Ostrogoths) would make any attempt by Geiseric a non-starter.

I agree that those issues are indeed very important...but one can hope that ways can be found around them.

(ie, for a time, all Emperors had to be Italian...later, they were ruled by Trajan, an Iberian)

Geiseric was also not just a barbarian German, he was a pirate. If you look at the Vandals under his rule it was pretty much a 30 year rape and pillage fest. He took the Western Roman Empire's fleet and sailed around the western med. The German rulers who were able to achieve long-term stable rule in Italy were smart men (maybe man, Theodoric may have been the only one) who made sure to curb the baser desires of their barbarian breathern.

hm, so either Geiseric converts (which not all Germans will appreciate), or he doesn't convert (which may stick in Romans' craws)

Exactly. Except the German won't just not appreciate it, they'll probably kill him and elect a new King. The Roman people didn't really have a military power to speak of, and would not rally to the defense of a convert German king. So basically it was stay Arian, get rich, and stay king, or convert and be killed. The choice was quite easy for German leaders to make for generations.

did he want his son or grandson to be Emperor? (he did arrange his son's marriage, after all, before the events which led to his attack on Rome)

When one reads the way that worked out, one may get the feeling that Geiseric may have used the marriage proposal as something of an excuse to just rape and pillage. He never made any move to do anything like enthrone his son or grandson. He did like using the marriage as a pretext for pillaging.

hm....Geiseric as Lord Protector of the Western Roman Empire's Empress...and if his grandson is Emperor, all the good; if his grandson isn't, then the family continues as the power behind the throne.

...at least until another family becomes the Defenders of the Emperor.

(yeah, I'm remembering the thread about how to make the Roman Empire like Japan's)

I'm would say that this is a possibility, but I don't think that Geiseric would be the German king to do it. In Constantinople there were German mercenary leaders who ended up supporting their own, Nicean Orthodox, candidates for the thrones successfully, and the same could happen here, but in the West the German leaders eventually decided that it was easier to rule in the Emperor's name (ala Theodoric) then rule through an Emperor. Thus they sent the Imperial regalia back to Constantinople.

I think the program addressed this...if you're referring to the Eastern Empire's overwhelming number of ships (many of which were burned by Vandals while on the open sea)

I am referring to those ships. If Geiseric is attempting to gain control of Italy though, he and his army and his fleet will not be present to burn the fleet. The Greeks would have the luxury of attacking where he is not and gaining a foothold in North Africa (perhaps Carthage) before Geiseric could return from Italy.

at this point, wasn't Ravenna part of the Eastern Empire?

No. It was the capital of the Western Roman Empire. And it was very, very difficult to take by force.

in any event, Geiseric might be willing to lose (temporarily?) the Empire north of the Alps, focusing instead on securing the Italian lands and keeping the breadbaskets of western North Africa.

The Empire no longer controlled the land north of the Alps. Or East of them. Or West of them. In fact the Western Empire at this point consisted of the the Barbarian tribes in Gaul, Hispania, and North Africa, and the Emperor in Italy. If Geiseric can gain control of the middle, he'll still have to deal with all of the outlying barbarian tribes. Theodoric was able to do this some years later, but I tend to think of him as rather extraordinarily capable, and since I don't place Geiseric in that category I don't think he could do it.
 
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