GB projects cancelled - with a twist

As promised, I dusted off that old list of mine. To be completed, I don't have Tony Butler and Derek Woods books on hand. Of course some lines might contradict others, history is rather OTL than linear A.H. I wanted to keep the best types that were utterly screwed by dumb decisions OTL (Trident and Medway, here is to you).

1 - No WWII bomber / transport agreement with the USA. And a slightly more inspired Brabazon committee: no Brabazon, no Princess.

2 - Three Audacious class carriers and a bunch of Centaurs, 1946. Implacables /Illustrious scrapped. Everything smaller sold elsewhere in the world.

3 - Miles M52 flies, even after the Bell X-1 breaks the sound barier.

4 - Hawker P.1081 as a transition, swept wing fighter. Introduced over Korea in 1952.

5 - Hawker Hunter only (no Swift) No Lightning - P.1 / P.1B only for Mach 2 research.

6 - DH.110 Vixen only (no Javelin) FAW - right from 1953-54, not 1959. Both RAF and RN.

7 - F-155T downrated- Fairey ER-103C & Hawker P.1103 will sweep export markets.

8 - 1958: Buccaneer for the RAF serves until the 90's (no TSR-2, F-111, AFVG, Tornado...)

9 - Victor Mk.2 and Vulcan Mk.2 with Blue Steel Mk.2 into the 60's, Valiant converted as tankers.

10 – Comet canned after the crashes. Vickers VC.7 as transport for the RAF and passenger version.

11 - BAC and HSA created earlier and consolidated earlier.

12 - 1954 medium fleet carrier consolidated with the French Clemenceaus and PA.58 Verdun. No Tiger conversion, EVER. No Victorious either. A small numbers of Centaurs are given a modest upgrade and soon will be converted in Commando carriers.

13 – Anglo – French cooperation on AEW radars, including a joint buyout of E-1C Turbotracer for the carriers, eventually with a cooperative radar.

14 - Hawker P.1127 still happens, leading to the Harrier and later Hawker P.1216

15 – 1959: SNECMA / RR agreement on Medway and Spey for Mirage IVB and later Mirage types. Trident stick with the Medway, which finds its way into the Viggen.

Into the 60's...

16 - Short Belfast with the French as a high-end to the Transall.

17 - Cooperation on space launchers is strictly anglo-french, no ESRO / ELDO disaster but only Blue Streak / Diamant / Black Arrow hybrids - later with LH2 small engines: RZ-20 and HM-4 merged. With Diamant or solid boosters it slowly growth to Ariane 1 level of performance.

18 – No Concorde (heresy ! blasphemy !) but an earlier Airbus to aggregate the varied anglo-french jetliners. Including Medway / Spey, larger Trident.

19 – Anglo-French Twosader with Spey, 1964. No Spey F-4K.

20 – No Jaguar but a subsonic AlphaHawk instead. By 1970 RAF strike force is a mix of Hawker P.1121, Buccaneers, Victor and Vulcan Mk.2 supported by Valiant tankers.

21 – 1965: Anglo-French agreement in VSTOL research. The French get transports: Breguet 941. British gets fighters, Hawker P.1127. Mirage III-V is hopeless, Dassault is reluctant so the British turn to Breguet as per OTL. No HS.681 monstrosity. P.1154 fails as per OTL.

22 - Red Top I.R seeker on french R.530. More generally, cooperation in AAM.

23 - Big wing Harrier in the 70's screw the AV-8B, followed by Hawker P.1216 in the 80's.

24 - RR doesn't throw RB.207 and Airbus under a bus, although a scaled down A300 finally gets RB.211s.

25 - In the early 60's the much larger VC-7 airframe has become the Nimrod 1 & 2 (instead of the dead Comet 4), up to the AEW.3... and it cures some of the OTL issues with the later (overheating avionics into a too small fuselage, so cool it with the kerosene - WTF ??!!!)
More generally the VC-7 is a success, and although the Boeing 707 can't be beaten, the VC-7 kick the DC-8 and sells pretty well. In RAF transport command, the VC-7 and Short belfast works hand in hand for long range hauling. Later the VC-7 logically replaces OTL VC-10 tankers when the V-bombers are retired.
 
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More generally, see that thread as a kind of extrapolating French post-war success on British best types.

Basically I picked the most valuable British types and some better decisional process ITTL let them lived to their full potential. that's how it (more or less) happened in France, don't ask me how we achieved such miracles. Maybe the total chaos and shit that led to 1940 was remembered somewhere...

France aircraft industry was utterly destroyed by 1944 and yet in 1946 Air Minister Charles Tillon went into something remarquably similar to you British decision process, that is, a total aberration.
By 1948 - 1952 the results were catastrophic !
- SNAC Cormoran large transport crashed, killing everybody onboard
- Four naval fighter prototypes were created for... non-existing PA.28 carriers, three crashed, three pilots dead (VG.90 twice, SNAC 1080 once, leaving only the Nord 2200... which proved a total dog)
- A Canberra like light jet bomber program was started: NC.270 never flew, SO.4000 flew but was a completely underpowered dog with the aerdoynamics of a brick led.
- SNCASO Espadon swept wing fighter was overambitious but proved over-heavy and did not climbed properly.
And more, and more.
So France was somewhat headed the way of GB... yet 1952 had a sharp turn in the right direction. Not only Dassault entered the fray, but also the SO.4050 Vautour, Fouga Magister, helicopters...

so if France got his aircraft industry out of a deeep morasse by 1952, after a cataclysmic start like this, GB could have done it...
 
More generally, see that thread as a kind of extrapolating French post-war success on British best types.

Basically I picked the most valuable British types and some better decisional process ITTL let them lived to their full potential. that's how it (more or less) happened in France, don't ask me how we achieved such miracles. Maybe the total chaos and shit that led to 1940 was remembered somewhere...

France aircraft industry was utterly destroyed by 1944 and yet in 1946 Air Minister Charles Tillon went into something remarquably similar to you British decision process, that is, a total aberration.
By 1948 - 1952 the results were catastrophic !
- SNAC Cormoran large transport crashed, killing everybody onboard
- Four naval fighter prototypes were created for... non-existing PA.28 carriers, three crashed, three pilots dead (VG.90 twice, SNAC 1080 once, leaving only the Nord 2200... which proved a total dog)
- A Canberra like light jet bomber program was started: NC.270 never flew, SO.4000 flew but was a completely underpowered dog with the aerdoynamics of a brick led.
- SNCASO Espadon swept wing fighter was overambitious but proved over-heavy and did not climbed properly.
And more, and more.
So France was somewhat headed the way of GB... yet 1952 had a sharp turn in the right direction. Not only Dassault entered the fray, but also the SO.4050 Vautour, Fouga Magister, helicopters...

so if France got his aircraft industry out of a deeep morasse by 1952, after a cataclysmic start like this, GB could have done it...

The question is how the French did it.
 
Was the Red Top's IR seeker better than the IR R530's? The latter was a (somewhat) full aspect one.

Anything we could gain from an earlier cooperation as early as the Taon/Gnat instead of the Jaguar?
 
The question is how the French did it.

It just clicked into place as I red that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Marie_Gallois

He rejoined the Air Force in 1948 as an aid in the cabinet of the chief of staff of the Armée de l'air. A specialist of equipment and manufacturing, he wrote the quinquennal plan for aeronautic production, which was accepted by the Parliament in August 1950, and studied production plans at the European level. He took part in discussions regarding the use of United States aid in Western Europe.

This. I red the man testimony 20 years ago in a magazine. In 1948 he somewhat took over from the ruins of the Tillon plan (see my post above for the results) and then, did as per the wikipedia quote, in 1948-1950. And this send France aeronautic industry back on track for the first time since... 1918: no kidding.

Looks like aeronautics was a footonote in a much larger economic planning effort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_planning#France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planification_en_France

DI-RI-GIS-ME.
 
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If i was to try and draw some possible areas of cooperations

- Aircraft carriers. Crap, Clemenceau and Foch actually had (shortened to 50 m from 60 m) BS-5 catapults from the Audacious class ! It blew my mind when I heard about it. Clemenceau started in 1954 as PA.54, just like "1954 medium fleet carrier". Not the 1952 best known carrier, the 1954 one. If you want cooperation on carriers, really, start THERE. The guy in charge from the PA.54 catapults goes shopping in GB for BS-5 and plaf, "1954 medium fleet carrier" did you said ? Vous avez dit ?

- Naval SAMs I often hear of Sea Slug as a huge and cumbersome thing. Hello, MASURCA. Same role, same issues.

- Airliners Here is a good one that is hardly believable but true: the 1955 Caravelle... borrowed the Comet 4 nose and cockpit. Unbelievable. Make the VC-7 a high end to the Caravelle. Then get SNECMA a licence to build the Medway and smaller Spey in 1959, for the Original Trident. In turn, every single Mirage until M53 gets Speys in place of OTL TF-306.

- Rocketry: Blue Streak is the fat rocket France is lacking. Black Arrow and Diamant looks like twins. Later on, RZ-20 and HM-4 are the first two LH2 engines outside the USA, even ahead of the Soviets RD-56. Every building block to Ariane is already present by 1964 instead of 1979, it is just Europe and Europa that screwed the pooch OTL.

- Combat aircraft: Dassault is a major obstacle but there are ways around it, such as SNECMA getting Speys and medways, or Breguet meeting a different fate than Jaguar and... Dassault takeover.

- Naval aircraft: on carriers larger than OTL Clems, more options. Such as the Twosader with Spey, for a start. A joint buyout of E-1B Tracer turned into Turbotracer with Turbomeca or Bristol turboprops. AEW is a go, the P.39 had the radar what later become the Nimrod AEW fiasco (sigh)

- V/STOL: two major tweaks here. Mind you, the basic Harrier trick was born at Michel Wibault in 1957, a former pre-war Bloch and Breguet rival that never recovered from 1940. Use Wibault as a ploy to get a french touch in the Hawker P.1127, although Dassault Mirage III-V will make things difficult down the road.
On Breguet side, the Breguet 941 was terrific, imagine a joint effort with HS on a smaller 681. Such was the STOL performance of the 941 (120 m only landing run !!!) you could use that thing as a COD aircraft on the joint carriers.

More later.
 
It just clicked into place as I red that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Marie_Gallois



This. I red the man testimony 20 years ago in a magazine. In 1948 he somewhat took over from the ruins of the Tillon plan (see my post above for the results) and then, did as per the wikipedia quote, in 1948-1950. And this send France aeronautic industry back on track for the first time since... 1918: no kidding.

Looks like aeronautics was a footonote in a much larger economic planning effort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_planning#France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planification_en_France

DI-RI-GIS-ME.

Most of the good aspects of France came from that policy, like the reliance on nuclear power or the excellent reliable electricity transport network.

And above: YES TO THE BRIT-BREGUET ALLIANCE

Oh, and now that I'm thinking, can both France and the UK actually bother to use those 30x170 guns and use the SAMM 30mm AA turret from the AMX DCA, then upgrade to Sabre in the 80's?

Hmm, I've checked something and if it didn't change much in weight and dimensions to the -2 version , then the HS-115-2 engine used in the AMX-10s would produce 20 hp more than the RR K60, be lighter but a bit larger. Could have been used in the FV 432 I guess.
 
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And when one look at the mess that were the 30's, and the why of the 1940 crushing disaster (Azincourt 2.0, here we go !) we are coming back from rock bottom...

Seriously, 1940 is very much like 1415 Azincourt with the Germans in place of the British. It is not only a military defeat but far more than that, the disintegration of an entire country. With Vichy in the role of the Armagnacs and Bourguignons traitors. I won't go as far as saying that De Gaulle was Joan of Arc (ROTFL) but fact is that...
"quand la France est perdue, un miracle sauve la France"
(when France seems to be completely lost, a miracle happens, and France is saved)
 
Agreed, it's insane how France can get away with the worst defeats yet still rise and be a great power a few years later. The Revolution/Napoleonic Wars and the post-1870 period come to mind, but I digress.

Just noticed something, but I don't think that the FV 601 Saladin was needed given that with a somewhat longer vehicle heavier by under 2 tons, you can get the EBR which was available sooner, is even more mobile and has much greater firepower.
 
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After some research I've got some ideas to exploit better synergy between the UK and France:

- The Red Top and R530 missiles are relatively similar in terms of dimensions, role and development timeframe (start in the mid 50s, entry into service in about 1964), however the IR seeker of the former was possibly better and there was a potential to use the R530's radar seeker and transistor technology. With a joint program starting early the French could get the skills and knowledge they needed for that IR seeker, and with the larger British radars I think that there is a serious possibility that we could get a better missile than both while giving the Brits some abilities they didn't have until the Sparrow on the F-4.

- Looking at the British proposals for a better Red Top (full aspect IR seeker for example), work on the Skyflash, the possibility of a joint French-British fighter for the 70s and French work on the Super 530F, which was originally proposed as a 200mm-diameter missile instead of the easier to develop 263mm version we ended up with, we could eventually see an Anglo-French equivalent to the Soviet radar-IR missiles with even better tech. One benefit I know about is that with the better radar and inverse monopulse seeker from the Skyflash, we could get the ability to engage low-flying targets which wasn't possible for the French until the Super 530D from 1987.

Thus as far as large AAMs go we can already get an excellent job done.

- The R-550 Magic also has somewhat similar dimensions to the Taildog/SRAAM project from the 70s, again similar timeframe and the Magic was also a more maneuverable missile than the Sidewinder. Interestingly enough practical minimum and maximum ranges were somewhat similar too. With the budgetary improvements proposed in the "projects cancelled" wanks, we could again get an interesting joint project for a highly maneuverable, possibly full aspect SRAAM missile for the 70s. Bonus point is that we can use the twin-launcher to get extra dakka! And this missile would actually exceed AIM-9L/M performance.

- Oh and I forgot but Sea Eagle and Exocet could pretty much be mixed in the same asset.

- On the ground the British probably stood to benefit a lot from the excellent French ATGM industry. Getting the SS-11 instead of the Malkara would already be a step in the right direction given that the SS-11 was also purchased for Westland Scouts/Wasps, but perhaps more interesting is the idea of getting the French SACLOS guidance from the SS-11 TCA and then HOT into the Swingfire. France could still make the HOT with Germany but it would be fun to work with the Brits instead and see what we could get from a redesign of the Swingfire concept with HOT improvements like the guidance, warhead and size while having that maneuverability.

- Tanks are an odd case because both countries went for very different approaches, but later on we could have some synergy with the British getting the better integrated COTAC FCS instead of the IFCS which was already getting outdated on the Challenger 1. The French started APFSDS development sooner too. (That said the L7/APDS combo is arguably more efficient than the CN 105F1/Obus G)

- A BIG ONE: the UK joins France on the GCT program (autoloaded 155mm SPG). France needed extra funds to finish the program so the AuF1 was delayed until 1981, but if we get the British to help (that is, butterfly the SP-70 and let the others Euros do the job themselves), we could accelerate that and allow the British to get a modern SPG a decade earlier. Given that the Brits developed the FH-70 that could also allow both countries to get a towed L39 howitzer instead of having either a flawed gun or one that came in 1989 (TRF1).

The British would still need a hull for that unless the Chieftain's engine is a diesel RR instead of the Leyland, but it would be useful to carry a potential Rapier/Roland or Brit Crotale system and for other purposes such as engineering vehicles so that's still good.
 
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Surely there can be more posts from people with the relevant technical knowledge? This is interesting stuff...
 
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