many political currents are seen as incompatible with certain elements because of the incarnations we know them to have taken here. That doesn't mean however that they cannot developed along other lines if its origins are different. For exemple, anarchism is usualy seen as hostile to religion due to its "No masters" mentality. There are however some people who refer to themselves as "Christian Anarchists" who obviously have a different outlook.
"Gay 'friendly' fascism' or such ideology?
- Thread starter The Ubbergeek
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many political currents are seen as incompatible with certain elements because of the incarnations we know them to have taken here. That doesn't mean however that they cannot developed along other lines if its origins are different. For exemple, anarchism is usualy seen as hostile to religion due to its "No masters" mentality. There are however some people who refer to themselves as "Christian Anarchists" who obviously have a different outlook.
On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence that platonic heterosexual relationships were a stable alternate ideal as early as the 2nd century CE. The literature is very ambiguous and to claim to know the "Classical mindset" is pretty darn dishonest, if you ask me.
Finally, let me admonish against confusing the professed ideal with what really happened. Despite the constuctionist discourse prevalent today, the professed ideal matters a lot less than literature scholars think it does when the sum of the evidence is examined.
Titus_Pullo
Banned
Unless for some reason Ernst Roehm gets rid of Hitler and becomes fuhrer himself. Roehm and a sizeable portion of the Stormtrooper leadership and foot soldiers were openly gay. But that's post 1900.
On this topic, the idea I once had, in trying to develop a semi-plausible, yet fairly socially liberal, fascist movement for a story I once thought of, my idea for allowing a form of "gay rights", if you will, was genetics to become better known, earlier. That is, develop the theory that there is a genetic component to sexuality earlier, getting rid of the idea of "choice", on some level, earlier.
The fascist movement I developed for such a universe (which was in the United States, so take it with a grain of salt; I'd say it's damn near ASB if not across the line) develops the eugenicist idea that homosexuality is, clearly, not a trait that society wants passed on. But many homosexuals have skills and capabilities which can be used to serve the state. Therefore, the state could recognize homosexuality on some level, actively encouraging people with homosexual tendencies to make such public and directly remove themselves from the gene pool for nationalist reasons, yet still be fairly "gay friendly" in the sense that such people are perfectly capable of entering into recognized relationships, taking part in Party politics and serving the state like anyone else; the only thing they sacrificed was the possibility of genetic offspring.
Of course, this idea requires both the early development of genetic theory AND a relatively liberal, forward-thinking form of fascism, which most people would say is ASB in and of itself.
The fascist movement I developed for such a universe (which was in the United States, so take it with a grain of salt; I'd say it's damn near ASB if not across the line) develops the eugenicist idea that homosexuality is, clearly, not a trait that society wants passed on. But many homosexuals have skills and capabilities which can be used to serve the state. Therefore, the state could recognize homosexuality on some level, actively encouraging people with homosexual tendencies to make such public and directly remove themselves from the gene pool for nationalist reasons, yet still be fairly "gay friendly" in the sense that such people are perfectly capable of entering into recognized relationships, taking part in Party politics and serving the state like anyone else; the only thing they sacrificed was the possibility of genetic offspring.
Of course, this idea requires both the early development of genetic theory AND a relatively liberal, forward-thinking form of fascism, which most people would say is ASB in and of itself.
And again, it may not be 'real' history that matters, but a vision, a 'romantisation' of it... Like how Renaissance may have been sparked by an idealised vision of the Antiquity, a dark view of Middle age...
Look at the controversy around 'Taboo', the japanese movie who shown the less spoken of side of the samurai side - the similar pederastic practices or at least some ideal of 'love'...
Look at the controversy around 'Taboo', the japanese movie who shown the less spoken of side of the samurai side - the similar pederastic practices or at least some ideal of 'love'...
Elessar's idea reminded me of BattleTech and the Clans, whose warrior class (for the most part) does not reproduce sexually but instead vies amongst itself for the right to earn a "Bloodname" and thus include one's genes in the "sacred breeding program" (which involves babies grown in tanks).
That's getting a bit too futuristic, unless we want to get really out there.
Perhaps some weird revival of the Sacred Band of Thebes involving the toughest gay warriors having the right to inseminate surrogate mothers to create new generations of warriors?
You might see this with a Roehm-Germany, since I would imagine they'd have the classicist/neo-Spartan thing going but be much more tolerant of gays.
That's getting a bit too futuristic, unless we want to get really out there.
Perhaps some weird revival of the Sacred Band of Thebes involving the toughest gay warriors having the right to inseminate surrogate mothers to create new generations of warriors?
You might see this with a Roehm-Germany, since I would imagine they'd have the classicist/neo-Spartan thing going but be much more tolerant of gays.
If you can make it work in the future, I'd give you a cookie anyway!
In such an environment, the role of females might be further reduced (not that they were that high in OTL fascist societie) to that of "breeding matrix".
The romanticisation of it is precisely what excludes the gayness as well. Classicists have suppressed evidence of Greek homosexuality for centuries, it was only in recent times it became a 'cool' thing to talk about.
The Nazis already had a neo-Spartan 'thing' going, but it made no difference. Hitler believed Germans were directly descended from the Ancient Greeks. A PoD where Fascism idealises the Classics is not a PoD at all.... If anything, we could see a recreation of Pederasty, but with the same conditions applied to it as the Spartans did. Sure, choose a Hitler Youth to befriend, Herr Roehm, but god forbid we catch you 'molesting' him.
What is the distinguishing feature of a Platonic relationship? That it involves the intellect and the soul and not the body. This furthers my point. Generally the Greeks approved of men bonding together, as long as it was not to do with physical attraction. What's more, this relationships were not intended to exist in opposition to heterosexual marriage, the means by which the city reproduced. In Sparta, if it was 'discovered' that the relationship between a man and his boy was sexual, they were social outcasts. The very that that Pro-Spartan sources are so eager to point this out only goes to show the dim view with which the Greeks saw the actual act of gay sex.
This entire thread is about the professed idea.
In such an environment, a Fascist movement could never win a majority vote.
It might be something that creeps in over time.
Also, if Roehm purges Hitler rather than the other way around, the Nazis are already in power, so voting is much less important.
Fascism creeps overtime because normal people can relate to it and because circumstances allow. Remember that the majority of Germans are either straight or women. Women were one of the Nazi's key supporters OTL because the Nazis appealed to conventional ideals of family. Actively subverting traditional ideas will not only loose votes, it will result in the Nazi Party becoming unbackable.
Also, just because Roehm was a closet homosexual doesn't mean he was carrying out any kind of gay agenda. Plus, a Roehm Nazi party will almost certainly be overthrown by the German Army.
A possibility is a nation like India by example.. there is an homophobia, but also very different at times views on sexualities and genders.. like Hijras(?), the 'third gender'...
Max Sinister
Banned
"openly"? Where did you read that? AFAIK it was more like "we don't speak about that topic".
And how much do you mean by sizeable?
No, you vastly generalized that "The Greeks believed if men and women abstained from sex with each other, they'd anger Aphrodite and go mad. The basic idea that women are 'unclean' and men should stick together simply doesn't wash with the Classical mindset."
To put it in scholarly Classicist terms, that is bullshit when applied in the absolute sense. There were multiple alternate models in literature and you don't have to look very thoroughly to find them.
My point about platonic heterosexuality was that there was no issue of madness. The union of the souls was sufficient, and neither was the hetero, sexual relationship the only real ideal.
The Spartans are not the only Greeks, and what you're saying flies in the face of a good chunk of Greek literature; Classical, Alexandrian, Imperial, poetry, prose, novel, picaresque, philosophical. There was a diversity of opinion and that opinion was well-written enough that we have it surviving the attrition of millenia to this day.
Stop with the Victorian crap, please.
I think it would weaken the ability of "homophile" groups (as they were called in the early part of the 20th century) to be able to gain legal rights in democratic societies, if the predominant driving force was purely about homosexuality in the fascist society so envisioned.
I doubt that would happen in practice, because a fascist ideology would typically focus more on a search for some kind of common enemy that the nationalist core of the ideology latches on to and exhorts everyone to fight against.
To this extent the acceptance of open homosexuality might be almost incidental, as a kind of expression of "human sexual purity" or some high-flown form thereof.
It might be widely accepted, though never officially promulgated, that the regime "doesn't care who you share a bed with, as long as it's a fellow countryperson".
I think a TL like this almost works better as a futuristic kind of ideology, but if you want to try for a POD, pick a country whose dominant religion is relatively lax about sexuality in general, give it a reason to form an extremist nationalist group, and let simmer.
There were several wars in the 1800s in Europe which might qualify for the requisite creation of social upheaval which tends to nurture extremist ideologies; it's generally very hard for extremists to make headway in stable societies, especially those actively seeking to stamp out a revival of a fascist movement (i.e. modern Germany).
A possible 'target' I have brought are monotheistic religions (or one), or such... its delicate, and depend of circumstances, but... like in a seculirizing europe around the last century, 19th, and increasing troubles with the muslim lands, like a mightier, stronger ottoman empire who also radicalise..
Warsie
Banned
Well not really, fascism can be non-restrictive in that manner but fascism arguably has a tendency for that due to arguably freudian reasons & the whole 'people who are controlled that way are better in battle' idea (why some people dont beat off or fuck off before combat or boxing or whatnot)
There was a future history book written in the late 1930s where the nazis became gay after winning and history was bastardized to show that all the nazis were gay even hitler and it became odd that hitler was seen with a woman all the time (they found evidence of that and it shocked people).
So, it could be alternate timeline China with a ressurection of Daoist thought and neo-confucianism with a revolutionary manner - eg "emperors are shitty, get rid of them and have a scholar become leader" and things about improving society for all or something like that, fitting in with old chinese ideas and OTL fascism in "western" societies.
Or OTL Japan becoming more fascist, and not just nationalist and militarist.
Germany had a strong gay rights movement around Berlin in OTL between wwI 's end and up until the rise of the nazi party, so you can say if the nazis become homogay that it doesnt affect the perception too much. After all, secessionism of Bretons and whatnot from France wasnt affected too much by colloboration with Nazi Germany OTL.
Though Eugenics DID Take a big hit, though Eugenics is wayy more intrusive than homosexuality
Japan could work, but there is a certain taboo around the gay side of the samurai culture, and homosexuals... The Taboo movie roused controversy, I harkens.