"Gay 'friendly' fascism' or such ideology?

The Ubbergeek

Set in the the Pre 1900 parts due to that the possible POD is surely that far...

Sorry, sensible subject I know, but bear this dark idea...

It's a Tl idea about LBGT rights and ideas and all.. In our world, from monotheism religions and their dislike of homosexuality, we have a deep set homophobia that took a long while to fade, and still is. The far-right and all still rage on for many on homosexuality.

As commented by a net poster on Le Devoir I think, homophobia and sexism are tied much maybe, as both gays and women are set as 'unmanly' and all, bearing scorn. So, feminism also tied up with LBGT rights.

Would the world have turned different, those two rights decoupled, if, by example, monotheistic religions didn't took off as much, if at all?

In a world with greco-roman paganism and cults who evolved out, would we have the possibility by example of a rather...crazy 'Romantic' right praising homosexuality as 'noble' and all, like a twisted version of (popular...) history of ancient Greece remembered and used, and scorn and sexism toward women? Deunion of feminism and LBGT ideas?

In extreme move, a Rommel who would be proud of his homosexuality, maybe a 'Spartan Fascism' of brotherly union against the 'dirty foreigners' and all...

(It appears to me at times that mysoginy was quite a feature of some gays, who, being attracted to men, have nothing to do with women..)
 

The Ubbergeek

jakewilson

The short answer is 'no.' There have been individual fascists who were gay (all of them closeted to various degrees), but an early twentieth-century right-wing revolutionary movement that openly promotes homosexuality is going to have problems selling the idea to its natural base of support and to gay people.
 

The Ubbergeek

jakewilson said:
The short answer is 'no.' There have been individual fascists who were gay (all of them closeted to various degrees), but an early twentieth-century right-wing revolutionary movement that openly promotes homosexuality is going to have problems selling the idea to its natural base of support and to gay people.
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And it's why I said that the POD would be quite far, like in a world that never got christian, islamic or such. Notice, this is the Before 1900 section...

I was thinking like modern 'pagan' nationalism, mix of religion, nationalism and cie...
 

schnitzel

Banned
Yukio Mishima.

But "fascists" don't have to be "right-wing" in the conservative sense. For instance an explicitly anti-Christian neopagan brand of fascism would have very little qualms about traditional sexual morality.
 

The Ubbergeek

schnitzel said:
Yukio Mishima.

But "fascists" don't have to be "right-wing" in the conservative sense. For instance an explicitly anti-Christian neopagan brand of fascism would have very little qualms about traditional sexual morality.
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Note that far right and neopaganism can quite walk hand in hand, so to speak, like in Scandinavia...
 

jakewilson

The problem is that neo-pagans and openly gay people are a miniscule constituency in early 20th century Europe compared to church-goers and homophobes. Furthermore, neo-pagans and gay people tended to align themselves with individualist (as opposed to communist) anarchism. So the core of fascist support will be opposed to homosexuality and most gay people will be opposed to fascism.
It should also be pointed out that Spartan homosexuality was a.) pederastic, and b.) occurred in a highly sex-segregated society (much like modern-day Afghanistan). Most, though not all, Greek homosexuality was what we would today call 'situational.'
 

The Ubbergeek

jakewilson said:
The problem is that neo-pagans and openly gay people are a miniscule constituency in early 20th century Europe compared to church-goers and homophobes. Furthermore, neo-pagans and gay people tended to align themselves with individualist (as opposed to communist) anarchism. So the core of fascist support will be opposed to homosexuality and most gay people will be opposed to fascism.
It should also be pointed out that Spartan homosexuality was a.) pederastic, and b.) occurred in a highly sex-segregated society (much like modern-day Afghanistan). Most, though not all, Greek homosexuality was what we would today call 'situational.'
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Yeah, but an alternate earth with time may have first something like the 'Romantic' movement, nationalism, and so, maybe some 'pop history' trend of 'Homosexualism' - 'better a man than a lowly female', etc...

We can go far on POD, where would be the most suitable one? Late Roman era?
 

schnitzel

Banned
The Ubbergeek said:
Yeah, but an alternate earth with time may have first something like the 'Romantic' movement, nationalism, and so, maybe some 'pop history' trend of 'Homosexualism' - 'better a man than a lowly female', etc...

We can go far on POD, where would be the most suitable one? Late Roman era?
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That would cause too many butterflies. Probably a more homoertoic Romantic movement.
 

jakewilson

I suppose a POD that butterflies Christianity could see a radical militarism that has a positive attitude towards homosexuality. However,, the modern world be unrecognizable as such.

But if we're going that early, sure, I could see the Sacred Bands of Franconia terrorizing the enemies of the Rijk.
 

Atom

Well, there's always the classic SF idea of a world facing steep overpopulation (or at least the perception of it) and an acceptance of gayness as a good way to prevent it. But I think ideologies like Fascism are probably a difficult sell for gayness, they're just to concerned with removing sex, with that sort of complete control over the bedroom, to allow sex for "non-important" uses.
 

The Ubbergeek

Yeah, and different Lumières...

The thing with Neopaganism to me is the creepily inherant nationalist side of it. Wicca and such is more inclusive by design, but things like Asatru is ALL based on 'National gods', and so, to me, all too easily can fall to nationalism...
 

jakewilson

It seems to me that a fascist regime would be unlikely to accept military homosexuality unless it was already a cherished national tradition. So any instance of it in Europe would require a POD before Christianity became established in the Roman Empire.

Are interested in this for a timeline, or just as a concept?
 

The Ubbergeek

jakewilson said:
It seems to me that a fascist regime would be unlikely to accept military homosexuality unless it was already a cherished national tradition. So any instance of it in Europe would require a POD before Christianity became established in the Roman Empire.

Are interested in this for a timeline, or just as a concept?
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More the later, but if it is inspiring enough...

It won't be fascism as we know it, but I can see something similar a bit... This view of homosexuality with the exaltation of the male body as in Nazi Germany....

It may be nasty if something like monotheism survive in the east - 'swarthy easternlings'!

Or at the very least a 'gay conservatism'...

Disclaimer; I see it as a dystopia and all. I ain't no facho.

But if we're going that early, sure, I could see the Sacred Bands of Franconia terrorizing the enemies of the Rijk.
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... This could be interesting in a GRIMDARK manner.
 

jakewilson

The Ubbergeek said:
It may be nasty if something like monotheism survive in the east - 'swarthy easternlings'!
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The obvious POD for a Christian Asia and Pagan Europe is having Julian reign for a bit longer. It doesn't stop the fall of Rome, but it keeps Christianity from being imposed on the West.
After that it's a cinch to have European chivalry develop something like Japanese shudo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudo#Ancient_Japan

And when nationalism comes round, voila: Christians are foreigners to the Franconian Rijk! They are loyal only to Egypt! They want to destroy the sacred bands that protect us against the wicked Avars! etc. etc.

I'd be careful to make sure that it doesn't seem like you're blaming gay people for fascism, though. Otherwise it sounds fun.
 

The Ubbergeek

Yeah, i don't condone such evils as fascism, I just went onto the facts that gays can be conservatives, can be also mysogine, and so pushing the darkness farther to a radical conclusion.... My apologies if the whole thing offence someone.


Could it happens to Asia instead? They have homophobia yes, but of a different nature.. I wonder, in an alternate Japan by example, modernised.... Or an India who never saw Islam into it's lands, perhaps mixed with 'Left hand' 'satanic' trantrism and/or 'ANti-Jainism'... Kshatriya.. hum....
 

Jaydoh

People seem to be operating under the assumption that a Christian Europe would never develop the pro-homosexual 'fascism' Ubbergeek is looking for. But if we have PODs affecting whether or not Europe becomes Christian, we can certainly have PODs that alter the development of orthodox Christian doctrine. Maybe in some ATL homosexuality could be held tantamount to celibacy in some way--they both in some way reject the command to 'be fruitful and multiply'. Of course, this would require a fascist state not concerned with population growth (i.e., one that doesn't think of its citizenry as a pool of manpower).
 

Tyr

Christianity is the problem.
Fascism is reliant on the conservative masses to at least be indifferent to it for it to work, their main supporter base is drawn from conservatives, for it to be out and out pro-gay....they'd really lose a lot of their potential supporters.
Sure, there's still the upper class right wingers who are just into the nationalism but down in the common masses religion is very important.

That being said a Greek ancient Sparta revivalists group could be a rather cool villain...
 
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