Gauls win at Alesia!

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I'm not sure this thread is viable. It depends how well Thierry Henri wants to play against his own countrymen.

Oh, sorry, I thought it was Gauls win at Arsenal. I'll shut up.
 
Interesting debate. Unsurprisingly I haven't changed my views though

LOL, that should be the slogan of AH.com

What I was saying was that after the Caesar and the republic, there was little (not none) expansion for glories sake. The main counterexample would be Britain, which was less successful and against an inferior enemy than Caesar faced in Gaul.

You keep bringing up the idea of conquering for glory, and that personal repute was the main factor in Roman expansion before Caesar. This doesnt fit at all with what actually happened. Lets look at some of the lands Rome took, and see if glory had any real role in it, eh?

All the Carthaginian lands (Spain, N. Africa, Sicily, etc.) were seized not for glory, but because Carthage was too potent a rival to allow to survive. Glory had nothing to do with it- for geopolitical and economic reasons, Rome couldn't have a more commercially and navally powerful state mucking around in their backyard. Rome was completely dependant on being able to use the Mediterranean to ship goods- a document from the 2nd century showed it was cheaper to ship a shipful of Grain from Rome to Syria than it was to transport it by land 25 miles away. Rome and Carthage both needed the Western Mediterranian and its best ports, they fought a series of wars over who got to dominate the area, and Rome won. End of story. Certain individuals may have achieved glory *as a result* of the wars, but glory was certainly not the motivating factor for taking Carthaginian lands.

Macedonia allied with Carthage and was conquered along with Carthage.

Parts of Asia Minor were taken after the King of Pergamum asked the Romans for help in defending his kingdom from the Seleucids.

Pergamum was willed to the Romans after its last king died.

Cilicia was the main base for pirates that had been ravaging Roman trade ships and transports, and was conquered to ensure safe shipping lanes.

Western Numidia allied with Carthage, Eastern with Rome. Rome granted the Eastern Numidians control over all of Numidia, and gave them client kingdom status. When Jugurtha started making some noise, the Romans took him out, and gave Numidia to King Bocchus of Mauritania. Numidia wasnt even part of the empire until after Pompey and Caesars civil war.

Pontus invaded Roman territories while the legions were engaged elsewhere, only to get conquered when Pompey returned with a full force.

Cyrenaica was bequethed to Rome.

Up til the invasion of Gaul, the only areas that were conquered because some general wanted to make a glorious name for himself were Syria (Pompey), Crete (Metellus),and some bits and pieces of Asia Minor. So basically that entire line of reasoning is invalid.

I thought that Caesar exaggerated the Germanic movement to justify his aggression to the geographically ignorant Senate. Regardless of events 4-500 years later, at the time Rome had nothing to fear from Gauls, let alone Germans.

"Rome had nothing to fear from Gauls, let alone Germans?" Is that some kind of joke? As recently as 105 BC the Cimbri and Teutones had come within a hair of trashing the entire Republic. They showed up in 109, and completely destroyed Marcus Silanus' army in Northern Italy. In 107, the Consul at the time, Lucius Cassius Longinus, marched up north with a fully army, and again was completely routed. A few years later, BOTH consuls marched up, with full legions,and succeeded in getting 80,000 legionaries killed. The Cimbri and Teutones essentially depopulated the entire Roman army. By 105, they had so devastated the legions, they could have essentially gone to any piece of the Republic they liked and claimed it as their own. Luckily for the Romans, they were incredibly disorganized, and basically just cooled their heels in Spain and Gaul for 5 years while Marius frantically finished up in Numidia and hurried back to Italy. Marius routed the Teutons, but the Cimbri and Tigurini (one of those Celtic tribes you portray as harmless, but just so happened to jump on the barbarian invasion bandwagon) beat ANOTHER Roman army, marched through Brenner Pass into Northern Italy, and only got beat because Marius was a military genius.

You might take a closer look at the Cimbric Wars before you say the Gauls and Germans posed no threat to the Romans.

As I recall Caesar, who was looking for justifications for his Gallic War, never mentioned that Gaul was a good place to grow corn (correct me if I am wrong). There was always enough corn for the plebs, it was only when war or Senators restricted the supply that there were problems.

He mentioned that Gaul, with some development, could be an extremely rich place. And the best way to make money in the Roman world was to be given control of a rich province you could rule as your personal fief, tax the shit out of everyone, and reap incredible profits as long as you gave the Senate their cut.
 
You hit the nail on the head, srv. The common statement that the Roman Empire was not expansive when the Republic is based on casually glancing at a map, not any kind of historical analysis. In my Rome TL, the Romans swallow up Gaul by bits and pieces, rather than in one bold conquest. However they did it, the Romans couldn't stop conquering Gaul until they reached good defensive frontiers, which would probably be the Channel and the Rhine.
Vercingetorix' confederation, if such a thing could even plausibly emerge, would probably suffer the same fate as all the tribal confederations that menaced Rome around that period. It would do nothing but hurry the Roman conquest of Gaul by opening the eyes of the Romans to the potential Gaulish threat .
 

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ACtually, I had a scenario for this on backburner for a long time. It became more plausible in recent yers as archeological evidences came to light that Gauls were much more civilised and organised than previously thought ( which was already not too shabby a level, especially in metallurgy and agriculture ).

My PoD is the 'rescue army' coming to save Alesia. Caesar stated in de bello gallico that it was 250,000 strong. Even if he exagerated to promote himself, there's no doubt that this army hugely outnumbered the legions. Unfortunately, there was no such thing as united command in that horde. Four different chiefs claimed command and equal rank. OTL, they managed to attack separately ( as in in different DAYS ), allowing Caesar to defeat them in detail and hold Vercingetorix desesperates attempts to break out.

So, let's change this. Say, Vercingetorix has a young lieutenant, loyal and intelligent, which he sends to the rescue army. Let's call him..... Abraracourcix. ABraracourcix, a skilled hunter, manages to sneak through the Roman camp - OTL, some of Vercingetorix messengers did -. Upon reaching the rescue army, Abraracourcix is appealed with the fight among the chieftains and foresee disaster in separate attacks, he defies the four chiefs - being of equal ranks - and, after beating them, take sole commands of the whole army - except some of the dead chiefs ambacts -.

With a coordinated attack, the roman lines are pierced and the rescue army links with the men trapped in Alesia. The German cavalry charge is shattered by Gauls reserves held for the purpose and commanded by Abraracourcix, while Vercingetorix withdraw all the remains of his starving army through the portion of Roman lines held by the rescue army. During the fighting inside the camp, Caesar somehow finds himself in harms way and is killed - later legends will say by Vercingetorix himself, but noone really knows -.

The legions reel from such a blow. They have lost their beloved generals, many officers and a lot of troops. Their gauls allies slink away, while the german mercenaries race to Rhine. Labiennus takes command and decides a strategic retreat to Narbonaise gaul. However, Vercingetorix has the time to get better and, with Abraracourcix and the rescue army troops - his Alesia men are left for R&R - continuesly attack the legions in the hit and run tactics that worked so well before Alesia. Less than 10% of the roman troops manage to reach Narbonaise - but they bear the Legions Eagles -. When the troops reach Rome, everyone expects a Gaul invasion of Narbonaise ( again ), but when nothing materialise - see below -, roman politics prevails. Rome sinks first in disorders, then in full blown civil war ( also again ).

In fact, Vercingetorix took time to get all his troops back to strength and instill a little discipline ( he gets away with this because the men nearly worship him and he has full support of Abraracourcix, also worshipped ) and prepare for a full blown invasion up to the Alps and maybe beyond. But, before he has done more than launched a few scouting raids, news come that the coalition which support him is starting to separate, the chiefs seeing no major threat any longer - except for Rome's previous allies in Gaul -. So Vercongetorix takes a fatefull decision. Instead of south he takes his army North and force all the big gaul confederacies to recognise his name as his title ( Vercingetorix means 'king of the warriors' ). At this point, his men are fully with him. This takes him a couple years. Afterward, he takes the time to include the belgae in his Gaul overconfederacy, to stop their raids. This also takes him a couple years. At this point Vercongetorix has a huge veteran army. Then he goes back south and conquer Narbonaise. Rome, being in full-blown civil war is unable to stop him before the Alps and pyrennees. Peace is signed at this point and Vercingetorix tries to organise the Overconfederacy, with a clear sucessor ( Abraracourcix ), a strong Druid influance and assembly drawn from the confederacies assemblies.

In time, Rome will return; When the dust settle, I see Rome having some of Narbonaise back, as a link, between spain and Italy, Up to Bordeaux in the North, then the long-time ( as in centuries ) borders following the Gironde and Garonne, then Tarn, Gard, Durance and Verdon. In the meanwhile the confederacy will have extended to britain ( thanks to a reconsituted Venete fleet ) and over the rhine. This leaves Rome with a rival in the West to mirror the persian rival in the East.


Mighty fine story
 

CalBear

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Mighty fine story
Hum...

Necro out of the gate. Asked to stop.

Necro'd after being asked. Formal Warning.

Necro'd after being formally warned.

Five total posts in under two weeks. All necro's mostly one liners.

Let's see. 5/5 divide by actions, carry the three... Okay

Banned for trolling straight out of the Gate.

We divorce you

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