Gang of 25 revolt/Tory split in 81

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Deleted member 157939

In late November 1981, a cohort of Conservative MPs submitted a letter threatening to vote against the monetarist Autumn Statement to chief whip Michael Jopling. The threat of this potential revolt was further amplified when Jopling warned Thatcher that twenty other MPs including Norman St John-Stevas and Ted Heath, were considering joining in abstaining, which could negate the governments majority. Significant concerns existed that signatories such as Stephen Dorrell, Hugh Dykes and David Knox, Jim Lester, Chris Pattern etc could split from the party. The prospect of a large scale backbench rebellion during the intense infighting as Thatcher struggled against the Wets, brought the Conservatives increasingly close to splitting. The crisis coincided with the explosion of support for the SDP-Liberal alliance, who at the time courted Tory defections (although probably not as much as they should of), and the plummet of the Governments poll rankings to the most unpopular in history. Ian Gow, Thatchers PPS, would take charge of the detoriating situation, organizing personal meetings with the potential revolters, along with meetings with Brittan and Howe. On the 8 December, only 14 Conservative MPs would abstain.

Such a situation raises a lot of very interesting possibilities. What could be the ramifications of a successful revolt? Under such circumstances, could Thatcher be forced to resign, an 81 leadership contest raises many possibilities. On the other hand, while Dorrel, Dykes and Hicks are identified as the most likely defectors to the SDP, could we perhaps see the likes of Pattern etc defecting?

In terms of potential PODs, perhaps Jopling remains in charge of the situation, his original approach of inviting MPs for drinks proved to be quite unsuccessful.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
In late November 1981, a cohort of Conservative MPs submitted a letter threatening to vote against the monetarist Autumn Statement to chief whip Michael Jopling. The threat of this potential revolt was further amplified when Jopling warned Thatcher that twenty other MPs including Norman St John-Stevas and Ted Heath, were considering joining in abstaining, which could negate the governments majority. . .
Okay, assuming this is about economics and even more specifically about “holding the line” against inflation,

and as Yank who was a teenager during the stagflation here in the States in 1979,

tackling inflation first plays off a type of tough rhetoric and fundamentalism. “You have to establish the run first!” (from American tackle football)

No, in point of actual fact, we’re always trying to achieve multiple goals at the same type. In economics, the big ones are steady GDP growth, modest unemployment, and modest inflation, all pretty much at the same time.

And we input goals such as increasing rates of education, improved measures of public health, initial investments in variety of possible tech waves for the future (have to make some intelligent guesses!), and probably more stuff as well.

And at this point, one can possibly see why a fundamentalism in which we focus on one number most of all will be at least intellectually soothing.
 
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Would losing a vote on the budget amount to an expression of no confidence in the government? If so, Thatcher would probably either have to resign, forcing a leadership contest in her party, or call a general election.

With the former, it’s fun to speculate on the likely candidates. Michael Heseltine, Norman Tebbit and Francis Pym spring to mind, or is it too early for them to run with a chance of success?

On the economic front, a u-turn away from strict monetarism and back to intervention along Keynesian lines could actually bring higher support for the Tories and dent the rise of the SDP/Liberal alliance. Having said that, it depends on whether Thatcher’s successor commands her election-winning abilities or not.
 

marktaha

Banned
Pym would have won Maggie was right to tough it out - defeating inflation must always be the government's top economic priority.
 
Pym would have won Maggie was right to tough it out - defeating inflation must always be the government's top economic priority.
3 million thrown on the scrap heap of unemployment in the mid-80s would beg to differ. As it was (and still is), a lack of willingness from both main parties to engage the unions and find a sustainable balance of wages and price controls made the focus on inflation such a priority. Far better to raise productivity and expand worker ownership in their companies, than get caught in a false dichotomy of wages v jobs that lets the bosses go scot free to continue taking in the profits off their labourers’ backs.
 

marktaha

Banned
Remember what the unions did to Britain in the 70s. I served my country in a dole queue in the 80s as I'd have had to serve it in the Forces in the 40s.
 
They went on strike as employees, to protect their jobs and working conditions against government attacks and destructive legislation. All 'Maggie' did was to break apart the remaining social fabric and leave us at the mercy of the increasingly wealthy and powerful few. A great legacy, for sure.

I've no doubt that if the Gang of 25 had stuck to their guns in 1981, most likely alternatives to Thatcher would have used Keynesian policy tools to raise economic growth. However, admittedly only an administration truly representative of the interests of the working class - as 95% of us are - would re-engage the trade unions and repair the situation to bring inflation and unemployment to a sustainable footing.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
Would losing a vote on the budget amount to an expression of no confidence in the government? If so, Thatcher would probably either have to resign, forcing a leadership contest in her party, or call a general election.

It is essentially a VONC. That pretty much guarantees a General Election. It's the Government that has been defeated on the vote, not the PM.
 

David Flin

Gone Fishin'
3 million thrown on the scrap heap of unemployment in the mid-80s would beg to differ. As it was (and still is), a lack of willingness from both main parties to engage the unions and find a sustainable balance of wages and price controls made the focus on inflation such a priority. Far better to raise productivity and expand worker ownership in their companies, than get caught in a false dichotomy of wages v jobs that lets the bosses go scot free to continue taking in the profits off their labourers’ backs.

Given the 1970s, the 1980s were an inevitable counterswing of the pendulum. I don't know if you were around to remember the 1970s. I was. With situations such British Leyland losing more work days to strike action than there were work days where work was done, and all the rest of it, a response was bound to take place.

The 1980s weren't helped by the Labour Party effectively swinging into full self-destruct mode.
 
3 million thrown on the scrap heap of unemployment in the mid-80s would beg to differ. As it was (and still is), a lack of willingness from both main parties to engage the unions and find a sustainable balance of wages and price controls made the focus on inflation such a priority. Far better to raise productivity and expand worker ownership in their companies, than get caught in a false dichotomy of wages v jobs that lets the bosses go scot free to continue taking in the profits off their labourers’ backs.
You can not seriously be suggesting that Labour was (or is) unwilling to engage with trade unions, it is the party of trade unions; representing them was literally its founding and historic purpose.
 

Deleted member 157939

With the former, it’s fun to speculate on the likely candidates. Michael Heseltine, Norman Tebbit and Francis Pym spring to mind, or is it too early for them to run with a chance of success?
Heseltine and Tebbit most probably too early (though I’d assume that applies more to the latter then the former). Pym, Gilmour, Prior all come to mind as potential Wet candidates
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
On the economic front, a u-turn away from strict monetarism and back to intervention along Keynesian lines could actually bring higher support for the Tories and dent the rise of the SDP/Liberal alliance.
And economically, I think a mixed approach is likely to achieve more of the goals of the British people.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
You can not seriously be suggesting that Labour was (or is) unwilling to engage with trade unions, it is the party of trade unions; . . .
I detect just a ;) slight note a sarcasm. ;) Of course, a modern political party has to be willing to make compromises.

On the optimistic side of the ledger:


BlogImage_AsianTigerCubs_051817.jpg



Yes, you grow an economy during the ‘70s and ‘80s. Although the 1982 recession was bad, plus the Philippines had governmental turmoil.

————————

Steady GDP growth in most important. And then, in my hearts of hearts, I really believe employment is second most important. However, for the sake of coalition building I’m willing to support policy which gives equal weight both to good employment numbers on the one hand and low but non-zero inflation on the other.
 
Pym would have won Maggie was right to tough it out - defeating inflation must always be the government's top economic priority.
Actually in current Japan for eg creating Inflation might actually be a good idea. A worse problem than inflation is a sustained delfationary period. With most Western societies now past the demographic transistion thie prospect of a long term deflation across the western world is far from unlikely.
 
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Remember what the unions did to Britain in the 70s. I served my country in a dole queue in the 80s as I'd have had to serve it in the Forces in the 40s.
hmm It was not the Unions for all their faults (and virtues) that created the obseession within British Companies to maintain dividend levels instead of investing in plant equipment and new marketable products, or that created the appalling incompetence of British middle and upper management in many companies. .
 
To move back to the premise of the thread, how would this have manifested directly?

An Autumn Statement is NOT the Budget - it's the mid-year "progress report". To vote against it is serious indeed but it's not a question of confidence per se.

Even with 25 Conservative MPs voting against, it's probable, with the support of the UUP, the Thatcher Government would have survived.

From there, what next?

The local associations for the 25 MPs could then have voted to deselect them - assuming they didn't, the MPs could have broken ranks with the Parliamentary Party and opted to sit as Independent Conservatives. This might have provoked moves to expel them from the Party or it might not.

It would be nice to butterfly away the Falklands Conflict and continue the political turmoil into 1982.

The Independent Conservative faction is the fourth largest after the formation of the SDP - relations between the Independent Conservatives, SDP and Liberals are at first difficult but improve through the good offices of Roy Jenkins, Jim Prior and Chris Patten.

It is agreed the 25 ex-Conservative MPs will resign en masse and force by-elections in May 1982 along with Bruce Douglas-Mann of Labour. The Alliance agrees not to contest these seats but the Independent Conservatives face Official Conservative and Labour opposition in the "Super Thursday" elections of May 6th.

Many historians now argue May 6th 1982 was the start of Britain's political revolution - of the 25 Independent Conservatives, 23 held their seats (the Official Conservatives won the other two). Bruce Douglas-Mann held Mitcham & Morden for the SDP while the local elections in London showed huge gains for Alliance and Independent Conservative candidates.

By now, the 23 MPs and two former MPs had been joined by several hundred Conservative councillors who had defected to the Independent Conservative brand but the pressure was on to formalise the split and come up with a new name - several were considered including National and Progressive but in the end Reform Conservative was chosen though this quickly became Reform.

At the inaugural Reform Party Conference in September 1982, newly elected leader Chris Patten spoke to an audience of several hundred delegates - he welcomed Roy Jenkins and David Steel to the gathering. The three leaders had already decided the only way forward was a non-aggression pact between the three parties.

This would be agreed (not without some reservations in all three parties) and by early 1983, the Alliance was polling 45% or more in polls.

Margaret Thatcher's minority Government was teetering on the edge of collapse in 1983 and the withdrawal of Ulster support in the summer was the final blow.

Not wishing to repeat Callaghan's humiliation of a Vote of No Confidence, Thatcher came out strongly calling a General Election for October 21st (Trafalgar Day) - a plan to call it on October 14th was rejected because of the symbolism of the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings.

As we now know, the Alliance won a landslide 423 seats, Labour held 169 and the Conservatives just 35. Margaret Thatcher lost her own seat of Finchley by over 5,000 to the Alliance and most of her Cabinet also lost their seats.

As had been agreed by the three parties, Roy Jenkins became Prime Minister with Chris Patten as Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary and David Steel as Home Secretary with James Prior as Chancellor. The Alliance era had begun.
 

Deleted member 157939

To move back to the premise of the thread, how would this have manifested directly?

An Autumn Statement is NOT the Budget - it's the mid-year "progress report". To vote against it is serious indeed but it's not a question of confidence per se.

Even with 25 Conservative MPs voting against, it's probable, with the support of the UUP, the Thatcher Government would have survived.

From there, what next?

The local associations for the 25 MPs could then have voted to deselect them - assuming they didn't, the MPs could have broken ranks with the Parliamentary Party and opted to sit as Independent Conservatives. This might have provoked moves to expel them from the Party or it might not.

It would be nice to butterfly away the Falklands Conflict and continue the political turmoil into 1982.

The Independent Conservative faction is the fourth largest after the formation of the SDP - relations between the Independent Conservatives, SDP and Liberals are at first difficult but improve through the good offices of Roy Jenkins, Jim Prior and Chris Patten.

It is agreed the 25 ex-Conservative MPs will resign en masse and force by-elections in May 1982 along with Bruce Douglas-Mann of Labour. The Alliance agrees not to contest these seats but the Independent Conservatives face Official Conservative and Labour opposition in the "Super Thursday" elections of May 6th.

Many historians now argue May 6th 1982 was the start of Britain's political revolution - of the 25 Independent Conservatives, 23 held their seats (the Official Conservatives won the other two). Bruce Douglas-Mann held Mitcham & Morden for the SDP while the local elections in London showed huge gains for Alliance and Independent Conservative candidates.

By now, the 23 MPs and two former MPs had been joined by several hundred Conservative councillors who had defected to the Independent Conservative brand but the pressure was on to formalise the split and come up with a new name - several were considered including National and Progressive but in the end Reform Conservative was chosen though this quickly became Reform.

At the inaugural Reform Party Conference in September 1982, newly elected leader Chris Patten spoke to an audience of several hundred delegates - he welcomed Roy Jenkins and David Steel to the gathering. The three leaders had already decided the only way forward was a non-aggression pact between the three parties.

This would be agreed (not without some reservations in all three parties) and by early 1983, the Alliance was polling 45% or more in polls.

Margaret Thatcher's minority Government was teetering on the edge of collapse in 1983 and the withdrawal of Ulster support in the summer was the final blow.

Not wishing to repeat Callaghan's humiliation of a Vote of No Confidence, Thatcher came out strongly calling a General Election for October 21st (Trafalgar Day) - a plan to call it on October 14th was rejected because of the symbolism of the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings.

As we now know, the Alliance won a landslide 423 seats, Labour held 169 and the Conservatives just 35. Margaret Thatcher lost her own seat of Finchley by over 5,000 to the Alliance and most of her Cabinet also lost their seats.

As had been agreed by the three parties, Roy Jenkins became Prime Minister with Chris Patten as Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary and David Steel as Home Secretary with James Prior as Chancellor. The Alliance era had begun.
Very intriguing take as ever @stodge!

However I doubt the willingness of the entire Gang of 25 to breakaway or the likeliness of their deselection. Fourteen MPs did abstain and to the best of my knowledge, did not face any major repercussions from their local associations or from the parliamentary party. While humialiating the government would certainly would incur a much different response, I doubt it would go as far as that extent.

Furthermore I really couldn’t see the formation of an Independent Conservative faction, which would further evolve into a Reform party. A breakaway from the Tories simply wasn’t an option for many “Wets” due to a variety of factors, including quite interestingly the societal status being a Tory MP gave in certain constituencies. Quite a few took a Hattersley type approach, believing they could win back the party from Thatcher and the monetarists, indeed that was the motivation behind the potential revolt.

On the other hand, a precedent does exist with the suspension of the whip from 21 rebel Tory MPs in 2019. Assuming a breakaway does happen, I doubt the Independent Conservatives would perform that well. The Tory vote would most likely be so split that we could have bizarre Labour victories in safe seats, indeed having two parties with virtually the same name competing for the same voter base is hardly a recipe for immediate electoral success. While breakaway momentum is certainly a factor, so are the potentially negative effects of appearing to revolt against the Conservatives in many safe Tory constituencies. The SDP-Liberal Alliance certainly did soften the Tory vote in many areas during the peak of their momentum, however a rigid base of Tory voters still existed, who may find little enticing in supporting the “rebels” in a Tory civil war. It is possible the government could successfully position the Independents as serving to the benefit of Labour. At best I could see the Independents narrowly edging above the Goverment (a ratio of maybe 14-11 seats maybe), at worst hardly scraping 5. It must be noted that even despite the media coverage and widespread fame of the Gang of Four, only two of them actually held their seats for the SDP. A bulk of the SDP defectors did not enjoy such limelight and lost their seats. One can imagine that a cohort relatively unknown Conservative MPs (besides Gilmore, Pattern etc) would suffer similar defeat.

Indeed the formation of the Reform Party seems a tad unnecessary, at this point the SDP was actively courting liberal Tories. Surely it would make more sense to gravitate towards joining the SDP rather then forming a new party from scratch. Indeed they would most presumably be welcomed with open arms. An influx of Wet defections would benefit the SDP immensely.

What I envision occurring (also brainstorming for my TL) is a larger revolt including the Gang of 25 + Wets such as Prior and Heath etc. Should it be successful, the brutal infighting that plagued the Tories at the time becomes an utter clusterfuck. A heavy handed response from the government (potentially yet another purge of Wets from the Cabinet) ensues, pathing the way for Thatcher to be challenged for the leadership. For the sake of the butterflies, let’s imagine Thatcher narrowly wins against a candidate such as Pym. That, coupled with a better Thatcherite performance in the 1922 Committee elections, may be the straw that breaks the camels back for many Wets.

By late 1982 (the Falklands has been butterflied away) the Tory civil war is still raging. Senior Wets such as Gilmour and Prior have endured the same agonizing process of despair at the party’s situation, believing it to have become helpless, much alike that of what the SDP defectors experienced. One must remember, Rodgers and Williams where avid Labourites, the process of divorce from Labour was described as “severe mental pain,” (indeed the notion of them splitting from the party would have been laughed at during the 70s).

A Wet “Gang of Eleven” defectors could emerge, I could see it comprising of:
  • Jim Prior
  • Nicholas Scott
  • Hugh Dykes
  • Stephen Dorell
  • Robert Hicks
  • Chris Patten
  • Keith Stainton
  • John Wells
  • David Knox
  • Jim Lester
  • Richard Needham
 
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I'm sorry to be that person, but his name is Chris Patten. Only saying that because I genuinely had to do a Google to make sure I wasn't missing out on some elusive senior 70s Tory.
 

Deleted member 157939

On the other hand, a precedent does exist with the suspension of the whip from 21 rebel Tory MPs in 2019. Assuming a breakaway does happen, I doubt the Independent Conservatives would perform that well. The Tory vote would most likely be so split that we could have bizarre Labour victories in safe seats, indeed having two parties with virtually the same name competing for the same voter base is hardly a recipe for immediate electoral success. While breakaway momentum is certainly a factor, so are the potentially negative effects of appearing to revolt against the Conservatives in many safe Tory constituencies. The SDP-Liberal Alliance certainly did soften the Tory vote in many areas during the peak of their momentum, however a rigid base of Tory voters still existed, who may find little enticing in supporting the “rebels” in a Tory civil war. It is possible the government could successfully position the Independents as serving to the benefit of Labour. At best I could see the Independents narrowly edging above the Goverment (a ratio of maybe 14-11 seats maybe), at worst hardly scraping 5. It must be noted that even despite the media coverage and widespread fame of the Gang of Four, only two of them actually held their seats for the SDP. A bulk of the SDP defectors did not enjoy such limelight and lost their seats. One can imagine that a cohort relatively unknown Conservative MPs (besides Gilmore, Pattern etc) would suffer similar defeat.
While on this topic, I did a bit of experimentation with the electoral calculus around the Gang of 25.

I reduced the Tory percentage by 10% to grant to the Alliance, while not touching the Labour percentage (Con: 33.5 Lab: 28.3 Alliance: 36.0), then examined each of the 25 constituencies. Assuming all Alliance voters would vote for the Independent Conservative/member of the Gang of 25 candidate, I compared the Tory result with the Alliance as a measure for the results of a Government vs Independent contest.

Cormack: Tory 50-34
Dorrell: Tory 43-32
Knox: Tory 44-32
Squire: Tory 37-35
Morrison: Tory 44-39
Critchley: Tory 45-44
Walters: Lib 41-47
Gilmour: Tory 51-41
Wolfson: Tory 48-39
Meyer: Tory 40-40
Watson: Tory 51-42
Dykes: Tory 40-38
Townsend: Tory 43-40
Hicks: Lib 45-49
Crouch: Tory 47-36
Miscampbell: Tory 41-36
Wadel: Tory 45-38
Mcrindle: Tory 48-40
Speed: Tory 47-38
Pollock: SNP 29-29
Hunt: Tory 53-37
Patten: Lib 37-46
Needham: Lib 43-50
Lester: Tory 44-35
Wheeler: Lab 33-25
(The first number represents the Con percentage which will be imagined as votes in favour of the Conservative party. The second number represents the Alliance percentage which will be imagined as votes in favour of a breakaway Independent Conservative/Alliance defector candidate. Percentages where rounded up)

The results are quite interesting. Four seats would be won by the rebels, while at least six seats would be marginal (5% or under difference). Two seats would fall to Labour and the SNP, one per party. The rest of the seats would be held by the Government.

In such a case that the entire Gang of 25 breaks away en masse. Walters, Hicks, Patten and Needham would be elected as MPs. Squire, Morrison, Critchley, Meyer, Dykes and Townsend would face very close contests (being a by-election the results could swing either way). While the others would not be elected.

However this is bearing in mind, a general election simulation. As stated prior, these would be by-election contests which as everyone knows can produce quite different results then a general election. As a result it would not be out of the question to assume that many other members of the Gang could be elected, nor out of the question to assume that fewer would be. Further keep in mind, I only calculated a 10 percent swing, in the face of a Tory schism it could be much more.
 
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