California is not going to be split in two. It already exists as a state and the Constitution is clear- a state can't split up without that state's ok and the ok of Congress (whether Congress had the right to make an exception for Texas and if that exception pertained only to that period of time and not "anytime in the future" is a matter for SCOTUS, but it's moot since it's never going to happen).

No way California is giving up land and splitting. Baja California will have to be its own state or more likely two states.

And I disagree with the heavy eastern lands on the map of the OP. That isn't what Santa Anna was willing to sell. It was Baja, along with Sonora. Sonora will be a state. The Rio Grande will remain the border for Texas.

From the tip of Baja California to the Oregon border, it's about as long as the entire East Coast. I think that would embolden concepts of dividing California within the California state legislature.

I do agree that Sonora is more likely to be sold than those lands, based on demographics.

The Yates Purchase (richard yates goes to mexico as ambassador instead of gadsen.


1. Alta California
2.Desserette
3.Arizona
4.North Sonora
5. Tejas
6.Taysha
7.Sequoya
8.Baja California
9. South Sonora
10. Sinaloa
11. Blaine
12.Coahuilla
13.New Leon
14.Buchanon

Why would they divide Sonora when barely anyone lived there? Also, why would Sonora not keep the lands south of the Gila River sold to the US in the OTL Gadsden Purchase? Why are some Mexican states renamed but others aren't?

12. & 13. Historically, there was a small secessionist movement here, which, if the US was purchasing, would take advantage of and likely (re)combine Tamaulipas, Coahuila, and Nueva Leon into a single state: the Rio Grande Republic. This would have to happen to have it accepted, as it would be yet another free state against the South, making politics all messier. ...That, and the natives were highly opposed to slavery, and wouldn't be accepting of any filibustering settlers (they have their hands full populating Texas, as it is). Could see immigration of Germans as happened in southern Texas OTL, which could be interesting.

A state of Rio Grande would be quite powerful and influential indeed in US politics. Seems like a way to avoid having three separate territories with the potential to become three separate states, but by combining them, you're gonna get a very powerful state by the mid-20th century.
 
From the tip of Baja California to the Oregon border, it's about as long as the entire East Coast. I think that would embolden concepts of dividing California within the California state legislature.

I do agree that Sonora is more likely to be sold than those lands, based on demographics.

I need to dig up my thread I worked on a few years back. Basically, Sonora and Chihuahua and Baja could be assimilated, especially Baja. Population was really low. Remember that about 80% of Mexico's population lives below the Tropic of Cancer. See here:

As of 1895, which is the oldest and most relevant date for which I've found data, 1,562,503 lived in Baja, the five border states, and Yucatan. This was out of a population that totaled at 12,700,294, or 12.3% of the population approximately. In 1848, the Yucatan had a larger population (500k instead of 300k, thereabouts) while the other states had a smaller number of residents. (The various native tribes were still strong in 1848, and most of the interior was very sparsely settled in Sonora and Chihuahua.)

Ah, but as with the foundation of the country, the states can cede their claims to the federal government in exchange for the assumption of debt. As the latter would happen by default, the former would be assumed. Then Congress would determine the border between the states.





That’s the key here. The north–particularly out west and certainly all of north Baja–wasn’t really populated until the Mexican Cession.

Baja California in 1850 (the entire peninsula together, not as two states as right now) had ~12,000. Chihuahua, ~200,000. Sonora, ~139,000. If you add Durango and Sinaloa, they were ~162,000 and ~160,000, respectively.

Consider, then, a timeline where the Rio Grande Republic joins of its own volition (and fights for the US in the subsequent Mexican-American War), the above would be the potential “hostile” population, in addition to the territories further north. Less than three quarters of a million, and nowhere near all of them would be hostile. Consider the US in 1850 had upwards of 23 million, population doesn’t really seem a concern here.

A state of Rio Grande would be quite powerful and influential indeed in US politics. Seems like a way to avoid having three separate territories with the potential to become three separate states, but by combining them, you're gonna get a very powerful state by the mid-20th century.

Thing is, the eastern states are large enough that they would immediately be admitted as states. The population is too high and will grow quickly enough as it is. The best thing they can do is limit the population growth of those.

However, it wouldn't grow to that level for a long time. As of 2010, the three combined have a population of 10.67 million, which would make its population about 8th in the US among current states. However, based on the 1867 population of 347.2 thousand, The Rio Grande would (adjusted to 350 thousand for three years and a rough guestimate) be the 30th largest state in the US. Very underpopulated, overall.

Really, Mexico's population growth didn't kick in until about 50/60 years ago. By that time, the Rio Grande will likely be experiencing something closer to the US growth rates rather than Mexico's.
 
Given that the Gadsden Treaty in its original form was *rejected* by the US Senate, I doubt that a more extensive purchase would have been approved. Granted, the reasons for the initial defeat of the Gadsden treaty were complex, involving twelve antislavery senators joining with three advocates of more extensive acquisition and three defenders of Tehuantepec claimants. (Gadsden's treaty accepted American responsibility for claims by parties who had held Mexican franchises, now repudiated by Mexico, for the building of a railroad across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec--and to make matters more complicated, there were two rival groups of Tehuantepec claimants.) Still, the bottom line is that the friends of the treaty were able to revive it only by accepting an amendment that cut 9,000 square miles from the area that Gadsden had obtained. This was the first time in history the Senate refused to accept land ceded to the United States, and even then half the free-state senators voted against the treaty.
 
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Thing is, the eastern states are large enough that they would immediately be admitted as states. The population is too high and will grow quickly enough as it is. The best thing they can do is limit the population growth of those.

However, it wouldn't grow to that level for a long time. As of 2010, the three combined have a population of 10.67 million, which would make its population about 8th in the US among current states. However, based on the 1867 population of 347.2 thousand, The Rio Grande would (adjusted to 350 thousand for three years and a rough guestimate) be the 30th largest state in the US. Very underpopulated, overall.

Really, Mexico's population growth didn't kick in until about 50/60 years ago. By that time, the Rio Grande will likely be experiencing something closer to the US growth rates rather than Mexico's.

They wouldn't be admitted because Congress wouldn't want a large voting block of non-English speaking hispanics. They would wait for demographics to balance out in favor of whites, as they always did.
 
They wouldn't be admitted because Congress wouldn't want a large voting block of non-English speaking hispanics. They would wait for demographics to balance out in favor of whites, as they always did.

Probably going to be waiting for quite a while; that's the one concentrated territory they could take, and with more sparsely populated territories to the east. That combined Rio Grande state would have a population seven times larger than that of the largest hispanic population in a single political entity that the US took OTL (New Mexico). That population was urbanized and much more concentrated. That, and the US's immigration, both internally and from overseas, will not be much different than it was OTL, and will tip the more populous states far more quickly.

Frankly, I don't think the Rio Grande would be admitted at that point. Best chance is a more successful original republic that appeals to the US, the same as Texas does. If it is in a scenario OTL until 1848/1853, and it is annexed after, then there might be a seccessionist current running down there if they are denied statehood. Or, if that does not occur and the territory finds itself a frontier during the war, then it will have a chance to have its statehood pushed through to demonstrate its loyalty. (The more secure senators for the Republicans, the better after all. And the ones most opposed to it would be the slave states and the northeast. Remove that, through in overhyped tales of true unionist sentiment, and it has a chance.) If Santo Domingo was so close to becoming a state OTL, I believe that the Rio Grande could possibly have a similar chance.

It would basically function like a version of Quebec to the south, on the periphery of the country, with dual-language being the rule of the day. And, who knows; the US desired Cuba and other Spanish-speaking regions as well; if it makes the Cubans that much more likely to accept the US, they may be willing to sacrifice a few things.

EDIT: In the end, it will only do this if it becomes a state on its own. If the US tries for a greater Gadsden purchase, it will end up with something like te Forsyth map on page one. That's the part that was desired at largest. To have the actual Mexican Cession larger, you need a different negotiator. Same issue, different deal. So, the talk about Rio Grande here wouldn't apply to the PoD, as it is very unlikely for it to occur.
 
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Thing is, the eastern states are large enough that they would immediately be admitted as states. The population is too high and will grow quickly enough as it is. The best thing they can do is limit the population growth of those.

Would they? Looking at New Mexico, which since 1850 had passed the whole "60,000 people = state" concept, it might take a few decades.

However, it wouldn't grow to that level for a long time. As of 2010, the three combined have a population of 10.67 million, which would make its population about 8th in the US among current states. However, based on the 1867 population of 347.2 thousand, The Rio Grande would (adjusted to 350 thousand for three years and a rough guestimate) be the 30th largest state in the US. Very underpopulated, overall.

Really, Mexico's population growth didn't kick in until about 50/60 years ago. By that time, the Rio Grande will likely be experiencing something closer to the US growth rates rather than Mexico's.

Rio Grande would have the benefit of being on the border between the US and Mexico. It would thus absorb large portions of Mexico's immigration to the US (instead of Texas/California/Arizona), unless Mexico averts both the Mexican Revolution and then the overall economic issues it has suffered in the past few decades--and it's still going to get immigration, since it's right on the border. And then there's still other Latin American immigration from Central America, where if we want to avoid that, we have to avoid the conditions that led to the brutal civil wars which with the US aims toward Central America, seems highly difficult. I think with minimal butterflies, the population would still be similar, if not more. They're going to get European/Asian immigrants regardless, after all.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
The truth is that any bigger purchase is going to run into objections on the USA side of things, as others have noted. If not for Gadsden's unfortunate way of handling the matter, Santa Anna might well have been willing to sell more (and get more money). This would have caused domestic issues for him, but that never seemed to be his major concern. (One factor that might also help get Santa anna on board is a POD that somehow prevent William Walker from trying to annex northwestern Mexico.)

So, given that premise, a deal for more land may well be hammered out. But then... I don't see the US Senate just rolling with it. It can be done, but most likely, it requires a more fundamental POD than "the USA sends a better negotiator". Basically, a POD that can get some more support for annexation(s), and stops Walker's mexican filibuster, and gets another negotiator sent. (Walker also owned a newspaper for a while. Maybe the POD could be that he uses that as a platform to whip up rather broad support for annexations, instead of spending time actually filibustering? The different ATL negotiator could then just be a butterfly...)

In any case, supposing that such a deal ends up being struck, we should probably consider that most people wanted a somewhat practical border. The idea was not to annex entire states, but to draw a practical line somewhere. The maximum objective per wike would involve "most of the current Mexican states of Baja California, Baja California Sur, Coahuila, Chihuahua, Sonora, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas"... but think that's just a bit inaccurate. I can't be sure, but keep in mind that a large part of Chihuahua's souther border ran east-west back then. I suspect the general idea may have been to extend that line from the Rio Grande to the west coast (where it would incidentally meet up almost exactly with Sonora's southernmost border.) That would then mean: all of Baja California, all of Sonora, almost all of Chihuahua, the better part of Coahuila, and small parts of Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.

More likely to get accepted by all sides, however, would be a more modest proposal, involving only Baja California, Sonora and Chihuahua. I have marked this more realistic option (and what I'd consider a realistic border for it) as "A" on the map below. The maximum reachable objective (as described above) has been marked "B".

Personally, I think that if "A" had been achieved, all of it (including the OTL purchase) would have been turned into just one state. Which would probably mean that New Mexico Territory would also become just one state. If "B" had been achieved, I see it turned into two states. (Consider that whatever extra land would be gained in the east by no means constituted the most densely populated areas of Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.)

alt-purchase-options.jpg
 
By the time of the Gadsden Purchase slavery had been outlawed for almost 30 years in Mexico. Even if you go with the "popular sovereignty" concept for deciding about slavery in a territory, there is no way that most if any of these new territories/states would get enough immigrants with slaves to vote for slavery - at least for the moment any slaves brought in to these new territories would be free under local laws. If anything these territories/states would be pro-Union, and the CSA simply does not have enough assets to try and conquer them during the ACW. They would be a backwater during the war, perhaps some spot on the east coast would be used as a support port for the Union naval blockade of the western gulf. To the extent that arms and other war materials were smuggled in to Texas from Mexico that would be eliminated or markedly reduced.

The problem with this is twofold.

Popular sovereignty wouldn't be an issue simply because the proposed areas are pretty far south of the Missouri Compromise line. Granted, this really ended up not mattering at all once the Mexican Cession was annexed. This leads to...

The Northern states wouldn't go for this for a number of reasons. The potential for expansion of slavery was able to be avoided IOTL thanks in part to California being settled so quickly and going anti-slavery. This created the need for the Compromise of 1850. Having just averted one crisis, the Northern states aren't going to be too keen about adding enough territory that could potentially be open to slavery and the Southern states will make demands on expanding slavery into new territories. It's not a winning situation for anyone at this point. Once California became an issue, it was only a matter of time before the ACW broke out. Triggering another crisis of this magnitude so soon after avoiding the last one would just be politically stupid.
 
A massive acquisition in Northern Mexico won't happen so long as slavery remains center stage. At most you'll get Baja and Sonora.
 
Pretty much. we need to look at what the US sought OTL during the Mexican-American War that was not achieved: The Baja Peninsula. Also look at the US aims: securing the transcontinental railroad and control of the Pacific coast of most of North America. As such, the US would likely continue in those regards.

A competent Gadsden would render that much to the US: the Baja, and parts of Sonora and Chihuahua (the Forsyth Proposal shown above seems close to the max). I know there is a good map with all of the lines, but they are not shown. So, an alternate negotiator would likely bargain more in the west, rather than the east; the Rio Grande is a very good river, and there's no reason to move even further south (The Rio Grande Republic region, of which you would wholly annex, would never be a slave state through consent or admission). Frankly, the Gila river is a better border than the current one, but the land was sought for the railroad. Now, if we are to assume that the US intends to further dominating the Pacific, that means an adequate control of the Baja along with the mouth of the Colorado river. Anything else is extra, and would likely be demarcated by which towns are most important. (A southerly port in Sonora would mark the southern boundary).

As such, any additional states that would be gained would be minimal; 2 at most. The Baja Peninsula would become something, Sonora would be a state, and Arizona would gain a port, likely, due to the short distance to the ocean.



Hrm. Interesting map; not sure I agree with everything, but there are some ideas in here that could be fleshed out. My short comments:

1. Would likely be rendered in English, as the majority population at the time of statehood were Yankee settlers. Upper California and all. Also, comment on the Nevada border: Nevada was continuously expanded, as California's borders were defined relatively early, being a large coastal state, while Nevada was to be admitted at sometime as an inland state similar to the midwestern ones. However, Nevada had a rather small population historically, and had to expand at the expense of Utah and Nevada to bring the population upwards. Also, the US was trying to tend away from extremely large states; Texas and California were exceptions to the rule. If anything, a divided Nevada should be split more evenly between Utah, Arizona, and Cali. Or, perhaps, a rump Nevada could be combined with inland Oregon and Idaho, but that seems unlikely.

2. A state of Deseret, actually, would have large claims on Nevada; if Deseret is recognized and annexed by the government as a state, similar to Texas, it would have large territorial claims which would then be sold to the US. This might be how you get your Nevada division; have the majority of the Northeast retained by Utah, the southeast would be kept by Arizona as it was OTL (the Las Vegas area), and the west would go to California because of no other option.

Why the name spelled that way? Any justification?

3. The New Mexico territory was to be split from the moment it was created; New Mexico, centered about Santa Fe, already had a large cultural identity and centered government. Arizona was created, in part, to ensure that the territory remained a free territory and not influenced unduly by the slave states. The North/South variant could work here, or the east west as per OTL. There might not be a 4 Corners, though, if Deseret maintains large land claims. Also, note that the lack of a Nevada to the North and a large Mormon state would encourage the US government to set up as many non-Mormon states as possible.

Also, one quibble: that southern border is the result of the Gadsden purchase, and wouldn't exist here. You'd likely have the border along the Gila river, as it was before. That'll be your starting point, at least.

4. No real reason to split Sonora; its population was much smaller than California. Only reason you'd do this would be to increase the number of Senate seats they'd produce (as was done to North/South Dakota OTL). Otherwise, give those western areas to Peninsular California/Arizona and annex South Sonora; much more logical.

5. & 6. Any reason behind the split in Texas and unAnglicized name? seems to be off. The borders indicate that the split took place after Texas became a state and sold its western claims to the national government. If this is to imply a split during the Civil War (not unheard of, Sam Houston was very pro-Union), then the borders aren't too bad. (they seem too squiggly for the west and don't seem to follow any natural borders) Sam Houston would probably be leading West Texas against East Texas, with the northern one retaining the name Texas (6., not 5.). The other one would get a new name, likely.

7. Not sure why the neutral strip was doubled in width; slightly different sale to the federal government of Texas claims? If you really wanted to mix things up, have 6. contain (old) Greer county while having the neutral strip or not having it as per here. I'd suggest having it; the smaller that Oklahoma is, the more likely it will remain majority-native.

8. Interesting border; does that follow a natural feature? Nothing seems too terrible about this, but, all the same, would likely be named something else. If they followed OTL plans, it would likely be named Colorado, or some variant.

9. See 4.

10. Nothing wrong with Sinaloa, but I don't see it serving any actual purpose for the US to purchase it. More land in Durango might be nice, or just saving money at this point.

11. Nothing wrong here; name works well for its purpose.

12. & 13. Historically, there was a small secessionist movement here, which, if the US was purchasing, would take advantage of and likely (re)combine Tamaulipas, Coahuila, and Nueva Leon into a single state: the Rio Grande Republic. This would have to happen to have it accepted, as it would be yet another free state against the South, making politics all messier. ...That, and the natives were highly opposed to slavery, and wouldn't be accepting of any filibustering settlers (they have their hands full populating Texas, as it is). Could see immigration of Germans as happened in southern Texas OTL, which could be interesting.

14. Any particular reason for the slant? Only quibble here. And the name works, especially if Baja California takes up the existing Colorado name.

I'll work on it a bit more
 
Would they? Looking at New Mexico, which since 1850 had passed the whole "60,000 people = state" concept, it might take a few decades.

Rio Grande would have the benefit of being on the border between the US and Mexico. It would thus absorb large portions of Mexico's immigration to the US (instead of Texas/California/Arizona), unless Mexico averts both the Mexican Revolution and then the overall economic issues it has suffered in the past few decades--and it's still going to get immigration, since it's right on the border. And then there's still other Latin American immigration from Central America, where if we want to avoid that, we have to avoid the conditions that led to the brutal civil wars which with the US aims toward Central America, seems highly difficult. I think with minimal butterflies, the population would still be similar, if not more. They're going to get European/Asian immigrants regardless, after all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Pointing out that Nebraska had a population of 123 thousand in 1870 (it gained statehood in 1867), Colorado 194 thousand in 1880 (statehood in 1876), and ND, SD, MT, and WA had 191, 349, 142, and 347 thousand in 1890 (all statehood in 1889). I could go on with ID and WY with 89 and 63 thousand when they joined in 1890. Or, look at New Mexico OTL: 327k in 1910, statehood in 1912. Arizona was 204 thousand in 1910, statehood in 1912 as well.

For the continental US states, the threshold which seems to trigger is that 350 thousand range. The minimum population is just a threshold; it doesn't mean that the state will immediately seek out representation when it hits that point. However, for a Rio Grande that is not admitted as a state from the start, it will likely be exceeding that threshold far earlier; it will also have a lot more interaction with the rest of the continental US, and will have a significant immigration population in time. This is compared to Puerto Rico, which, while more populous, is quite a bit more isolated from the US. So, yes, I see them becoming a state later on.

It does seem to be a bit deterministic to say as such, but Mexico is not necessarily destined to experience the same growth patterns. Again, the large population growth exhibited began within the past 50 years, not 150 years past the point of divergence. We've no idea what state that Mexico would be in absent a timeline.

Could they become that large? Perhaps; it certainly is possible. It depends on how much of OTL growth was internal compared to external. And, while it has the potential to become so populous, no one realized how populous California would become, either; the concerns of the Senatorial impact will weigh on their minds far more than the impact that the house would have.

The truth is that any bigger purchase is going to run into objections on the USA side of things, as others have noted. If not for Gadsden's unfortunate way of handling the matter, Santa Anna might well have been willing to sell more (and get more money). This would have caused domestic issues for him, but that never seemed to be his major concern. (One factor that might also help get Santa anna on board is a POD that somehow prevent William Walker from trying to annex northwestern Mexico.)

So, given that premise, a deal for more land may well be hammered out. But then... I don't see the US Senate just rolling with it. It can be done, but most likely, it requires a more fundamental POD than "the USA sends a better negotiator". Basically, a POD that can get some more support for annexation(s), and stops Walker's mexican filibuster, and gets another negotiator sent. (Walker also owned a newspaper for a while. Maybe the POD could be that he uses that as a platform to whip up rather broad support for annexations, instead of spending time actually filibustering? The different ATL negotiator could then just be a butterfly...)

In any case, supposing that such a deal ends up being struck, we should probably consider that most people wanted a somewhat practical border. The idea was not to annex entire states, but to draw a practical line somewhere. The maximum objective per wike would involve "most of the current Mexican states of Baja California, Baja California Sur, Coahuila, Chihuahua, Sonora, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas"... but think that's just a bit inaccurate. I can't be sure, but keep in mind that a large part of Chihuahua's souther border ran east-west back then. I suspect the general idea may have been to extend that line from the Rio Grande to the west coast (where it would incidentally meet up almost exactly with Sonora's southernmost border.) That would then mean: all of Baja California, all of Sonora, almost all of Chihuahua, the better part of Coahuila, and small parts of Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.

More likely to get accepted by all sides, however, would be a more modest proposal, involving only Baja California, Sonora and Chihuahua. I have marked this more realistic option (and what I'd consider a realistic border for it) as "A" on the map below. The maximum reachable objective (as described above) has been marked "B".

Personally, I think that if "A" had been achieved, all of it (including the OTL purchase) would have been turned into just one state. Which would probably mean that New Mexico Territory would also become just one state. If "B" had been achieved, I see it turned into two states. (Consider that whatever extra land would be gained in the east by no means constituted the most densely populated areas of Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.)

View attachment 303604

Perhaps Nicholis Trist's duplicity becomes more widespread, with journalists harping on Polk allowing Trist to dictate the terms as being so favorable for Mexico, defying orders? Create the atmosphere that the US was cheated out of negotiations due to collaboration with the US negotiator and Mexico (sends claims flying about that Trist personally benefitted from what he held). That should be enough alone for the US to desire to "rectify" the makes made during the original negotiation. That provides all the motivation necessary.

Disagree on the number of states, though. In option A, there are two obvious divisions: the Baja and the inland states and regions. Furthermore, I do imagine the Chihuahua would become a state before Sonora for similar reasons as Nevada becoming a state: US desire to control the various mines in the region. There is also the question, at the time, of whether the large territory could be adequately governed from either Chihuahua or Hermosilla. After all, Sonora is much more easily accessible from the Pacific, while I think Chihuahua is more accessible overland from the East, which will result in the two regions growing apart naturally.

Mind, there is precedence. It was worried OTL that Santa Fe could not adquately govern the entire region as it was OTL. That was what lead to the OTL ideas for a north/south division, which lead to the eventual split of the territory on east/west lines in order to deny legitimacy to the Confederate state. So, as the Confederacy, inevitable this close to the Civil war even if it may not call itself that, would claim a similar region, encompassing the southern half of the old New Mexico Territory and part of Sonora and Chihuahua that are in Mexico OTL. They may even claim the entire region (Sonora/Chihuahua/Confederate Arizona) as a grand territory of Arizona, ruled from Mesilla. This would likely engender similar results as were done OTL. Except, with the Gila river as a (natural) border, New Mexico and Arizona might retain their respective northern/western bits as they don't have the southern territory.

The problem with this is twofold.

Popular sovereignty wouldn't be an issue simply because the proposed areas are pretty far south of the Missouri Compromise line. Granted, this really ended up not mattering at all once the Mexican Cession was annexed. This leads to...

The Northern states wouldn't go for this for a number of reasons. The potential for expansion of slavery was able to be avoided IOTL thanks in part to California being settled so quickly and going anti-slavery. This created the need for the Compromise of 1850. Having just averted one crisis, the Northern states aren't going to be too keen about adding enough territory that could potentially be open to slavery and the Southern states will make demands on expanding slavery into new territories. It's not a winning situation for anyone at this point. Once California became an issue, it was only a matter of time before the ACW broke out. Triggering another crisis of this magnitude so soon after avoiding the last one would just be politically stupid.

The Wilmont Proviso is what you're thinking of. It was a hotly contested one, but it forbade slavery from being expanded to any territory obtained from Mexico; this covered both the Cession and the Gadsden purchase. That was vigorously supported by the northern states, and it was already part of the law by the time of the purchase OTL. So, yes, popular sovereignty is the only way that slavery would occur so long as the Proviso remains in power (there were many attempts to alter it OTL). This could lead to an earlier New Mexico/Arizona split due to New Mexico being sacrificed as a slave territory so that the more densely populated southern regions wouldn't be. Of course, New Mexico would detest this, so maybe not...

The offset which could distract the South is a declaration calling for the annexation of Cuba as another slave state in compensation for the expansion of free territory. Of course, a larger problem is actually getting Cuba, but that seems to be the major prize that would distract the South.

I'll work on it a bit more

Just meant to give some advise. It might not be a bad idea to go to this link and have a look and see how it evolved OTL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_the_United_States

That way, you can create your own sequence of events. It's what I did in one of my more serious map projects: Do a year/biyearly update where you change borders based on the events going on. That sometimes leads to more realistic outcomes; every border change needs some justification, even if it is just "X border is moved to Y position so that Z town/lake/mountain/port is included within the territory's boundaries." Also, look into alternate state boundary proposals. The State of Lincoln is one of those; it was a proposal to split Texas half in two, similar to what you have done, along the Colorado River.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_(proposed_Southern_state)

Basically, write a little miniature timeline just explaining the border changes, accompanied by repeated edits showing changing borders, until you arrive at the final scenario.
 
Pretty much. we need to look at what the US sought OTL during the Mexican-American War that was not achieved: The Baja Peninsula. Also look at the US aims: securing the transcontinental railroad and control of the Pacific coast of most of North America. As such, the US would likely continue in those regards.

A competent Gadsden would render that much to the US: the Baja, and parts of Sonora and Chihuahua (the Forsyth Proposal shown above seems close to the max). I know there is a good map with all of the lines, but they are not shown. So, an alternate negotiator would likely bargain more in the west, rather than the east; the Rio Grande is a very good river, and there's no reason to move even further south (The Rio Grande Republic region, of which you would wholly annex, would never be a slave state through consent or admission). Frankly, the Gila river is a better border than the current one, but the land was sought for the railroad. Now, if we are to assume that the US intends to further dominating the Pacific, that means an adequate control of the Baja along with the mouth of the Colorado river. Anything else is extra, and would likely be demarcated by which towns are most important. (A southerly port in Sonora would mark the southern boundary).

As such, any additional states that would be gained would be minimal; 2 at most. The Baja Peninsula would become something, Sonora would be a state, and Arizona would gain a port, likely, due to the short distance to the ocean.



Hrm. Interesting map; not sure I agree with everything, but there are some ideas in here that could be fleshed out. My short comments:

1. Would likely be rendered in English, as the majority population at the time of statehood were Yankee settlers. Upper California and all. Also, comment on the Nevada border: Nevada was continuously expanded, as California's borders were defined relatively early, being a large coastal state, while Nevada was to be admitted at sometime as an inland state similar to the midwestern ones. However, Nevada had a rather small population historically, and had to expand at the expense of Utah and Nevada to bring the population upwards. Also, the US was trying to tend away from extremely large states; Texas and California were exceptions to the rule. If anything, a divided Nevada should be split more evenly between Utah, Arizona, and Cali. Or, perhaps, a rump Nevada could be combined with inland Oregon and Idaho, but that seems unlikely.

2. A state of Deseret, actually, would have large claims on Nevada; if Deseret is recognized and annexed by the government as a state, similar to Texas, it would have large territorial claims which would then be sold to the US. This might be how you get your Nevada division; have the majority of the Northeast retained by Utah, the southeast would be kept by Arizona as it was OTL (the Las Vegas area), and the west would go to California because of no other option.

Why the name spelled that way? Any justification?

3. The New Mexico territory was to be split from the moment it was created; New Mexico, centered about Santa Fe, already had a large cultural identity and centered government. Arizona was created, in part, to ensure that the territory remained a free territory and not influenced unduly by the slave states. The North/South variant could work here, or the east west as per OTL. There might not be a 4 Corners, though, if Deseret maintains large land claims. Also, note that the lack of a Nevada to the North and a large Mormon state would encourage the US government to set up as many non-Mormon states as possible.

Also, one quibble: that southern border is the result of the Gadsden purchase, and wouldn't exist here. You'd likely have the border along the Gila river, as it was before. That'll be your starting point, at least.

4. No real reason to split Sonora; its population was much smaller than California. Only reason you'd do this would be to increase the number of Senate seats they'd produce (as was done to North/South Dakota OTL). Otherwise, give those western areas to Peninsular California/Arizona and annex South Sonora; much more logical.

5. & 6. Any reason behind the split in Texas and unAnglicized name? seems to be off. The borders indicate that the split took place after Texas became a state and sold its western claims to the national government. If this is to imply a split during the Civil War (not unheard of, Sam Houston was very pro-Union), then the borders aren't too bad. (they seem too squiggly for the west and don't seem to follow any natural borders) Sam Houston would probably be leading West Texas against East Texas, with the northern one retaining the name Texas (6., not 5.). The other one would get a new name, likely.

7. Not sure why the neutral strip was doubled in width; slightly different sale to the federal government of Texas claims? If you really wanted to mix things up, have 6. contain (old) Greer county while having the neutral strip or not having it as per here. I'd suggest having it; the smaller that Oklahoma is, the more likely it will remain majority-native.

8. Interesting border; does that follow a natural feature? Nothing seems too terrible about this, but, all the same, would likely be named something else. If they followed OTL plans, it would likely be named Colorado, or some variant.

9. See 4.

10. Nothing wrong with Sinaloa, but I don't see it serving any actual purpose for the US to purchase it. More land in Durango might be nice, or just saving money at this point.

11. Nothing wrong here; name works well for its purpose.

12. & 13. Historically, there was a small secessionist movement here, which, if the US was purchasing, would take advantage of and likely (re)combine Tamaulipas, Coahuila, and Nueva Leon into a single state: the Rio Grande Republic. This would have to happen to have it accepted, as it would be yet another free state against the South, making politics all messier. ...That, and the natives were highly opposed to slavery, and wouldn't be accepting of any filibustering settlers (they have their hands full populating Texas, as it is). Could see immigration of Germans as happened in southern Texas OTL, which could be interesting.

14. Any particular reason for the slant? Only quibble here. And the name works, especially if Baja California takes up the existing Colorado name.

Here is that important and beautiful map you were talking about.

http://dsl.richmond.edu/historicalatlas/94/a/?sidebar=text&legend=hidden&view=plate

Use the key to turn off the text and image legend if you want. The image legend, however, is in the top image as well. The text is the right-hand margin describes the lines, who proposed the lines, the prices of that proposed land that was to be bought and more.

The top map is the lines drawn for the Mexican-American war. It must be said the US did not get lower California because of Nicholas Trist for the following reason:

"During the Mexican-American War, President James K. Polk sent Trist to negotiate with the Government of Mexico. He was ordered to arrange an armistice with Mexico for up to $30 million U.S. dollars, depending on whether he could obtain Baja California and additional southern territory along with the already planned acquisitions of Alta California, the Nueces Strip, and New Mexico. If he could not obtain Baja California and additional territory to the south, then he was instructed to offer $20 million. President Polk was unhappy with his envoy's conduct and prompted him to order Trist to return to the United States. General Winfield Scott was also unhappy with Trist's presence in Mexico, although he and Scott quickly reconciled and began a lifelong friendship.

However, the wily diplomat ignored the instructions. Known to have an over-fluid pen, he wrote a 65-page letter back to Washington, D.C. explaining his reasons for staying in Mexico. He capitalized on a brilliant opportunity to continue bargaining with Santa Anna. Trist successfully negotiated the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on February 2, 1848. Trist's negotiation was controversial among expansionist Democrats since he had ignored Polk's instructions and settled on a smaller cession of Mexican territory than many expansionists wanted and felt he could have obtained. A part of this instruction was to specifically include Baja California. However, as part of the negotiations, Trist drew the line directly West from Yuma to Tijuana/San Diego instead of from Yuma south to the Gulf of California, which left all of Baja California, though almost separate from, a part of Mexico. Polk was furious. Travel time for renegotiation was a month each way. Polk had no treaty during his Presidency at the time. He reluctantly approved."

Whether it is American-Mexican war or the Gadsden purchase it does not matter they are only five years apart; however, you have to two idiotic negotiators who have no negotiating techniques and therefore at the bare minimum the US could have got lower California especially in the end of the Mexican-American war. Any more land that the US could obtain is open to debate.

And

The bottom map are the lines drawn for the Gadsden purchase.
 
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Here is that important and beautiful map you were talking about.

http://dsl.richmond.edu/historicalatlas/94/a/?sidebar=text&legend=hidden&view=plate

Use the key to turn off the text and image legend if you want. The image legend, however, is in the top image as well. The text is the right-hand margin describes the lines, who proposed the lines, the prices of that proposed land that was to be bought and more.

The top map is the lines drawn for the Mexican-American war. It must be said the US did not get lower California because of Nicholas Trist for the following reason:

"During the Mexican-American War, President James K. Polk sent Trist to negotiate with the Government of Mexico. He was ordered to arrange an armistice with Mexico for up to $30 million U.S. dollars, depending on whether he could obtain Baja California and additional southern territory along with the already planned acquisitions of Alta California, the Nueces Strip, and New Mexico. If he could not obtain Baja California and additional territory to the south, then he was instructed to offer $20 million. President Polk was unhappy with his envoy's conduct and prompted him to order Trist to return to the United States. General Winfield Scott was also unhappy with Trist's presence in Mexico, although he and Scott quickly reconciled and began a lifelong friendship.

However, the wily diplomat ignored the instructions. Known to have an over-fluid pen, he wrote a 65-page letter back to Washington, D.C. explaining his reasons for staying in Mexico. He capitalized on a brilliant opportunity to continue bargaining with Santa Anna. Trist successfully negotiated the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on February 2, 1848. Trist's negotiation was controversial among expansionist Democrats since he had ignored Polk's instructions and settled on a smaller cession of Mexican territory than many expansionists wanted and felt he could have obtained. A part of this instruction was to specifically include Baja California. However, as part of the negotiations, Trist drew the line directly West from Yuma to Tijuana/San Diego instead of from Yuma south to the Gulf of California, which left all of Baja California, though almost separate from, a part of Mexico. Polk was furious. Travel time for renegotiation was a month each way. Polk had no treaty during his Presidency at the time. He reluctantly approved."

Whether it is American-Mexican war or the Gadsden purchase it does not matter they are only five years apart; however, you have to two idiotic negotiators who have no negotiating techniques and therefore at the bare minimum the US could have got lower California especially in the end of the Mexican-American war. Any more land that the US could obtain is open to debate.

And

The bottom map are the lines drawn for the Gadsen purchase.

Thank you very much. That was the exact one, and shows all of the borders. Been quite a while since I've had need to look at it.

As for OP, the only state that could be created, besides the obvious Baja California Territory, might be Sonora under Forsyth's treaty. That territory only includes part of Chihuahua, mostly desert (Chihuahua city is further to the south). As such, they'd lose a bit of territory in the northwest to Arizona and gain all that to the east.

That seems far more likely, as the primary reason was to provide a railroad while also establishing boundaries. Moving the border further south in the east moves away from that, as the Rio Grande is an excellent border. And, as American ambitions had always been more in the west and the Pacific than south (at least they took a higher priority), then the west option is more likely. (It's also easier for Mexico to deal with. Lower population provinces and all.)

I still believe that the only realistic way (criteria being that everything else remains the same up to the PoD, otherwise) is having a successful Republic of the Rio Grande establish itself and eventually apply to the US for statehood in order to protect itself from Mexico. That would make the region a cross between Texas and El Salvador (which considered submitting a request for statehood in fear of Mexico reconquering them. it never actually went anywhere).

Otherwise, the US would be stuck with a region that would have to be eventually granted statehood. It was US policy for the first century or so of its existence to only annex regions which could be directly incorporated into the state, and to avoid economical colonialism. It would go against US character at the time for them to maintain it as a continental Puerto Rico. This is another big strike of such a deal every occurring as well, as the US would be hesitant to annex such a region with such a large population and little support for joining the US. (Why annex large populations of Spanish Papists when there are larger, emptier regions that could be taken instead, basically).
 
Thank you very much. That was the exact one, and shows all of the borders. Been quite a while since I've had need to look at it.

As for OP, the only state that could be created, besides the obvious Baja California Territory, might be Sonora under Forsyth's treaty. That territory only includes part of Chihuahua, mostly desert (Chihuahua city is further to the south). As such, they'd lose a bit of territory in the northwest to Arizona and gain all that to the east.

That seems far more likely, as the primary reason was to provide a railroad while also establishing boundaries. Moving the border further south in the east moves away from that, as the Rio Grande is an excellent border. And, as American ambitions had always been more in the west and the Pacific than south (at least they took a higher priority), then the west option is more likely. (It's also easier for Mexico to deal with. Lower population provinces and all.)

I still believe that the only realistic way (criteria being that everything else remains the same up to the PoD, otherwise) is having a successful Republic of the Rio Grande establish itself and eventually apply to the US for statehood in order to protect itself from Mexico. That would make the region a cross between Texas and El Salvador (which considered submitting a request for statehood in fear of Mexico reconquering them. it never actually went anywhere).

Otherwise, the US would be stuck with a region that would have to be eventually granted statehood. It was US policy for the first century or so of its existence to only annex regions which could be directly incorporated into the state, and to avoid economical colonialism. It would go against US character at the time for them to maintain it as a continental Puerto Rico. This is another big strike of such a deal every occurring as well, as the US would be hesitant to annex such a region with such a large population and little support for joining the US. (Why annex large populations of Spanish Papists when there are larger, emptier regions that could be taken instead, basically).

I think it is important to notice that in Forsyth's line he follows the river going into Mexico but then suddenly draws a straight line across. He should have done that, notice on the map there are other rivers around and he should have drawn the line as follows and realised the rest is just dessert and a fence/wall would be created in its place like today to fill in the border.

Forsyth edited line.jpg


In conclusion, this is the most territory America could have got out of the Mexican-American war or the Gadsden purchase:

State lines and borders.jpg


Some other questions I want to ask:
  • If America bought lower California in 1848 would she be added onto California? Otherwise, if she is bought in 1853 she would be the state of "Lower California" or her name would be altered.
  • Arizona would get access to the see as shown.
  • Finally, a new state would be created out of Sonora also as shown.
 
I think it is important to notice that in Forsyth's line he follows the river going into Mexico but then suddenly draws a straight line across. He should have done that, notice on the map there are other rivers around and he should have drawn the line as follows and realised the rest is just dessert and a fence/wall would be created in its place like today to fill in the border.

View attachment 303724

In conclusion, this is the most territory America could have got out of the Mexican-American war or the Gadsden purchase:

View attachment 303725

Some other questions I want to ask:
  • If America bought lower California in 1848 would she be added onto California? Otherwise, if she is bought in 1853 she would be the state of "Lower California" or her name would be altered.
  • Arizona would get access to the see as shown.
  • Finally, a new state would be created out of Sonora also as shown.

Alright, time to break out GIMP. It is easier to see, and right now we're just sketching. Here's one thing you're missing: the border OTL was along the Gila River; the Gadsden Purchase was annexed afterwards. As the Gila river was such a good border, and I believe Arizona had a larger northern population at the time, it might not receive a slice of the new territory.

Sonora Border Minus Flora.png


So, there's your original Sonora territory. The Yellow line is (one) proposed line for a cession to Arizona for sea access. The reasons taken are, loosely, a line NE (roughly) from a point west of a possible good location for a port that can be accessed overland (bypassing a mountain) before turning straight north along the 113 W latitude line until running into the Gila river. Another possible method to determine a border would be to find the local paths and trails that would be used to access that region and make sure they are included. Another option is to go NE to the 112 W latitude line, then north, or to go NE or E until running into a nearby mountain range and then follow it north as well.

Frankly, that original border reminds me of the upper peninsula of Michigan for some reason...

Also, I'm not sure why you're necessarily limiting Forsyth's proposal. This map is from 1932, which is long after the fact (it's got the Salton Sea on it, which is a dead giveaway that this is anachronistic). The headwaters of the Rio Yaqui may not have been known well 79 years prior and may not have been as well charted. Also, while a river is a good line of demarcation, its headwaters become much smaller and a poorer choice for a border. Notice, above, that the Gila river border suddenly ends a few minutes east of the 110 Degree West latitude line. This is likely due to the river becoming so small (its breadth having reached a certain limit) that it proceeded further south and then straight east towards the Texas border.

Although here, obviously, it was for ease of clarification: mind that part of the reason for the Gadsden border was for a simplification and to eliminate border disputes. Forsyth's border has the border become, basically, "from the mouth of the Rio Yaqui northwards until crossing the Parallel 30 degrees N, then eastwards until the Rio Grande and southwards along the Rio Grande until reaching the mouth of the Rio Grande". That makes the border far simpler.

Politically, the loss of that portion of Chihuahua is much easier to bear than the loss of the Baja and Sonora as, indeed, it is mostly unsettled desert. Cutting the border off at the 30 N also shortens it, rather than allowing it to meander north into more uncharted waters and then sloping around some more.

Whatever his reasons are, I'm basing this on Forsyth's proposed borders as it both makes for the simplest, shortest border instead of allowing that salient while also preserving the majority of Chihuahua (including Chihuahua proper) in Mexico itself.

As for your questions:

1. If in 1848, it could go either way. There were discussions about splitting California into two parts, anyway, though any thought of that died with the Compromise of 1850 and the Wilmont Proviso. Adding Baja to it would not change things very much, and it may be split in two. Although, perhaps it will get a border further north (34th Parallel, perhaps? That'd give it San Diego).

As for a name, it would likely be Colorado; that was the historically proposed name for the Lower California proposed state.

2. It would, although a port would be in the east; the mouth of the Colorado river is a little boggy.

3. Sonora would eventually become a state, perhaps before the two inland ones. It would be after new!Colorado, though.
 
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