Fw187 in BoB, Luftwaffe's P-51?

[Deleted member 1487]

The Falke was designed as a light single seat fighter. Had the single seater been developed and up-engined, it could easily have become the German equivalent of the P-38 and been a much better long range escort in the BoB than the Bf 110, which was too large and heavy for such a role. The RLM directive to change it into a two seater really killed it, essentially adding lots of dead weight without even adding a rear defensive gun.

However, it is wrong to presume that an aircraft initially designed around one type of engine will automatically perform better with more modern and more powerful engines, so it is pure speculation to hypothesize that the single seat Fw 187 of 1938 could have been progressively re-engined with DB603/605 engines and still been a top-tier air superiority fighter in 1944 capable of meeting allied fighters on even terms. Given its extremely narrow fuselage it would also have been less well-suited as a heavily armed and armored bomber destroyer than the Bf 110, Ju 88, or Me 410. Only in combination with a overall different Luftwaffe strategy with respect to strategic bombing does a long-range escort fighter really makes sense for the Germans.

Also, on another thread where I'm having this discussion with some people who have the book that is the best source of info about the FW187:
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-FW...=1370312799&sr=8-1&keywords=Focke-Wulf+Fw+187

It appears that the FW187C, which would have been the 1942 production version of the Fw187 with the DB605s, was to have 4 Mg151/20 cannons in its nose, which would have had enough ammo for 6 passes on heavy bombers. Four of those 20mm cannon with explosive rounds would have shredded a bomber in a single pass, even the B-17. So it would have been an effective bomber killer in 1943-44 if it could keep its speed increasing with the increase in the DB605's power (I don't see why not, especially as it would have been adaptable to higher altitudes more readily than say the Fw-190D due to its size and wing span). Its high climb speed would have made it very effective as a bomber interceptor, as it can get up to altitude more quickly than even a single engine fighter like the Me109G, though not as fast as the Me262.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I thoroughly read both reviews of the book.

"Not as good as I thought"

"I am kind of disappointed. Mr. Harmann try to make a great book, but it is simply to difficult to get enough information about FW187 to make one"

A graph of calculated performance figures, not including those for DB-600, is proof of nothing, isn't it? There's precious little to verify the flight of the V6, and less than that for the -605 variant. Is there some shortcoming with the V6 that they didn't want us to know about? I can't make a decision. It is simply too difficult to get enough information about the FW187 to make one.

http://www.amazon.de/Focke-Wulf-187...ie=UTF8&qid=1382387598&sr=8-1&keywords=fw+187
From the German version:

For the first time this documentation is now bringing some light on the history of the Fw 187 Developed by Professor Kurt Tank aircraft , the prototype first flew in the summer of 1937 , was not only faster than any other German fighter with comparable engine , but it was also intended for record attempts that had to be abandoned due to the outbreak of war , however . The two-seat A- version was planned as the first pure-bred German night fighter , the B- version of the new hot steam cooling was successfully tested.

The debacle with the successor to the Bf 110 provided Me 210 took the Fw 187 again into play : the planned C version , also faster than any contemporary fighter , was designed with a speed of 700 km / h as a replacement for the Me 210 , but never went into production . The few built Fw 187 were used in industrial protection, the destroyer group and later the Danish air shooting school Vaerlöse . With many , many are previously unpublished paintings and drawings, a previously little-known aircraft is documented. A book for aviation enthusiasts and model makers , which fills a gap in the documentation of the German aviation history with interesting and surprising facts. It is also interesting to compare the performance with " contemporaries " the Fw 187 , only the chapter on the Fw 187 as a model would be able to save . Overall, highly recommended .

Also:

A really recommendable book: Well researched, enriched with many original documents and pictures easily.
Therefore well suited for those interested in aviation history and the modeller.

Maybe the English version isn't as good as the German one?

 

[Just Leo]

Maybe the English version isn't as good as the German one?

Maybe fewer English-speaking relatives.

 

[Catspoke]

The FW187 instead of the ME110 means Barbarossa goes better for Germany (almost all of Wilking improved Luftwaffe TLs, which are always interesting, seem to follow this pattern):

The Battle of Britain may go better for Germany, but the short time factor from June to October 40 and the overall plane strength levels aren't changing enough for Germany to "win" a Battle of Britain. Germany can put Britain on her heels, especially with a shipping campaign, but probably only impacting the Mediteranenan from about March 41 on (most of the December 40 Crusader stuff was already in the pipeline by August 40).

However if the Germans avoid the ME210 fiasco because of this and have less pilot wastage in the Battle of Britain the extra planes could be easily applied to army group north, where the Baltic state airfields could handle the extra planes, probably meaning the seige of Leningrad is tightened enough that Leningrad falls in December 41 (it was very a close run thing OTL) AND/OR extra aircraft could be applied to the 41 sieges of Odessa/Sevastopol where Rommanian airfields could be used. In November 41 where the Germans are actually withdrawing aircraft from the eastern front to go to the med, the extra reserve aircraft in this TL could be sent to the med instead. Perhaps the extra aircraft during the Soviet Winter counterattack butterflies away the need for the Demansyk airlift, putting the Luftwaffe in a position to be even more dominant in 1942.

Perhaps the Germans do enough better in 1942 that a compromise peace with the Soviets is possible in 43.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The FW187 instead of the ME110 means Barbarossa goes better for Germany (almost all of Wilking improved Luftwaffe TLs, which are always interesting, seem to follow this pattern):

Yeah, I'm working out concepts for a potential future TL.

The Battle of Britain may go better for Germany, but the short time factor from June to October 40 and the overall plane strength levels aren't changing enough for Germany to "win" a Battle of Britain. Germany can put Britain on her heels, especially with a shipping campaign, but probably only impacting the Mediteranenan from about March 41 on (most of the December 40 Crusader stuff was already in the pipeline by August 40).

Along the lines of what I was thinking...

However if the Germans avoid the ME210 fiasco because of this and have less pilot wastage in the Battle of Britain the extra planes could be easily applied to army group north, where the Baltic state airfields could handle the extra planes, probably meaning the seige of Leningrad is tightened enough that Leningrad falls in December 41 (it was very a close run thing OTL) AND/OR extra aircraft could be applied to the 41 sieges of Odessa/Sevastopol where Rommanian airfields could be used. In November 41 where the Germans are actually withdrawing aircraft from the eastern front to go to the med, the extra reserve aircraft in this TL could be sent to the med instead. Perhaps the extra aircraft during the Soviet Winter counterattack butterflies away the need for the Demansyk airlift, putting the Luftwaffe in a position to be even more dominant in 1942.

Perhaps the Germans do enough better in 1942 that a compromise peace with the Soviets is possible in 43.

Interesting ideas, I'll have to look into them more.

the biggest use I see for this plane is in the maritime role (and maybe high speed photo recon where it could be stripped down and evade interception)

Definitely a use I had in mind. Later in the war if upgraded with the Db605 it would be hard to catch over Britain, giving Germany some aerial recon abilities even late in the war.

if the Germans in your modified LW employ combat capable (which the condor wasn't) maritime bombers; like a full developed with good engines DO-19 forex, the FW-187 could escort them in the Bay of Biscay to counter British Barrier patrols

Perhaps then Biscay isn't as bloody for the LW. The Ju88 was totally inadequate for that role against the Mosquito.

the best use for them in the med, where their comparitively long loiter time would make them an excellent top cover fighter for convoys going to africa, it would also do well in raids in egypt where the british didn't have the advanced early warning network (and until 1942 much worse fighter aircraft) they could fly along the railways and coastal highway and inflict considerable damage with cannons (and maybe light bombing) whilst being mostly immune to interception; they could also strafe ships unloading at torbruk at mersa matruh with some success

They could also fit a 900 Liter drop tank, which was tested by Kurt Tank. Supposedly there was an upgraded version that had a 3000 liter internal fuel capacity, which nearly tripled the internal capacity of the Fw187 compared to the first version. So it could very much have been an extreme range escort if necessary. There was a version proposed with 4 MG 151/20s in the nose, which would have been devastating in strafing mode (or bomber destroying). I know Tank tested a Jabo version, though I doubt it could carry anywhere near as much as the Bf110, but it could be much faster in that role, especially later with the DB 605s. Maybe it could carry a light aerial torpedo, as I know it was supposed to have been tested with a 500 kg bomb load (light torpedoes were in the 560kg range).

I think that they might be wasted on Hitler's later Baedeker Blitz though.