Fw187 in BoB, Luftwaffe's P-51?

[NothingNow]

Just Leo pointed out that the Db603 was usable for the Fw187, so without the Me210/410 we can get those engines for the Fw187 late war.

Yep.
It's really just a matter of getting the Politics right for the design, and making sure the Fw 187 gets the necessary engines as well.

With early DB601s, and produced in place of the Bf 110, it'd be a beast of a machine, and an outstanding performer, which would remain competitive throughout the war as an interceptor (and could easily be upgraded to use DB605s with MW50 later on for an extra boost.)
With DB603s, (and the appropriate modifications,) it'd easily be one of the best twin-engined fighters of the war, and it'd be fairly adaptable. It'd also free up Jumo 211s or 213s for other projects, like the Fw 190D, Ta 152 and Ju 88G, just by replacing the damned Me 210/410 with something reliable earlier on.

 

[AdA]

Hi Wiking

Replacing the Bf110 with the Fw187 is a win/win option. The margin for assimetric fighting will probably not be as big as in the P38 vs Zero you allude to, the Spitfire being closer to the Fw in diving and top speed than the Zero was to the P38. The only efective counter will be a faster Spitfire, wich could lead to the mass production of the MkIII. However, at the time of the BoB the RAF was wrongly persuaded that the He113 "superfighter" was in service, and even though that fighter was estimated to outclass the Spitfire MkI and MkII not enough to acelerate Spitfire develpment.

 

[sonofpegasus]

If You are going to have the FW 187 in series production by 1939 and fewer or no Me 110's then The changes to Luftwaffe policy required means that you could gift the RAF, Both Whirlwinds and Gloster F9/37 fighters with sorted engines.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If You are going to have the FW 187 in series production by 1939 and fewer or no Me 110's then The changes to Luftwaffe policy required means that you could gift the RAF, Both Whirlwinds and Gloster F9/37 fighters with sorted engines.

That's a separate POD, feel free to make that thread if you want. The Whirlwind would require the Peregrine engines worked out, which would have nothing to do with the FW187, especially as it was a bomber killer, rather than a fighter killer. That's the job of the Spitfire.

Yep.
It's really just a matter of getting the Politics right for the design, and making sure the Fw 187 gets the necessary engines as well.

With early DB601s, and produced in place of the Bf 110, it'd be a beast of a machine, and an outstanding performer, which would remain competitive throughout the war as an interceptor (and could easily be upgraded to use DB605s with MW50 later on for an extra boost.)
With DB603s, (and the appropriate modifications,) it'd easily be one of the best twin-engined fighters of the war, and it'd be fairly adaptable. It'd also free up Jumo 211s or 213s for other projects, like the Fw 190D, Ta 152 and Ju 88G, just by replacing the damned Me 210/410 with something reliable earlier on.

Especially if the Me210/410 is butterflied way the replacement of the Bf110 by the Fw187, then the LW automatically gains about 2,000 extra airframes, thanks to the mess up around that project not happening. That alone is a massive help, but becomes especially helpful if many/most of those are then Fw187s. Of course there is the problem of having sufficient engines for them, but if there are more airframes around, then perhaps the RLM will actually make sure Daimler has enough engine factories around to supply them...maybe this means the Ostmark factory is handed over to Daimler earlier, instead of tooling for the never ready Jumo 222.
Beyond that by having a more survivable aircraft than the Bf110 will mean there are more pilots surviving for longer, not mention having killing more enemy aircraft.

 

[Just Leo]

The reason there are threads based on this period is that they did so many things wrong, in light of future events and requirements. They did not have that light. My personal belief is that a DB601/605 powered FW-187 single-seat long-range fighter would have been good for the LW, and bad for the RAF. The LM had no official requirement for such an aircraft in place then or in 1942, when further attempts to promote the design failed to garner excitement with the addition of further engine installations. The later engines would have changed the nature of the beast, without a redesigned wing and undercarriage, and possibly airframe/tailgroup. My opinion of the Ta-154, with those higher-powered engines and increased weight, is less stellar. There is a seemingly impenetrable wall denying information about the general performance or configuration of the DB-powered -187 which impairs a proper evaluation of heavier Falkes. Another aircraft, which hasn't seen any babbling, is the Ar-240, which did undergo vast amounts of research with various engine installations. While attempting to fill every role from dive bombing to mixing martinis, its service life was limited to a few recon flights over Britain. It was a period when they didn't know what they wanted, because they didn't have the light. They developed a dive bomber with a pressurized cabin.

My engine weight figures come from Janes, 1946, and my opinion of the DB-603 remain unchanged, as do the laws of physics, as pertaining to piston size. A bridge too far.

 

[BlairWitch749]

Wiking,

I've put thought into your concept, including a chat with Dennis Showalter on the subject at a lecture this year

It is important to remember that Goering made the LW a tactical airforce, and the operational and strategic strikes it made always had to be justified to a tactical end (the battle of britain's later stages being the only breaking of this) and more to the point the LW only increased it's focus as a sharp tactical instrument as the war went on (with bombing wings being nearly all transferred to close support missions)

I know this is to be gelled with a larger TL you have where Goering is removed from the picture and thus this could be changed (depending on the date of your POD)

Your suggestion in numbers is actually too low, the Germans lost a number of 110's in poland due to their performance issues, the total number for battle of britain at outset is probably more on the order of 400 (especially if you address pilot production issues in your timeline)

The question is does this meaningfully change anything.... in Poland and France I don't think so, they both had no meaningful early warning systems or AA defenses and LW losses were acceptable even in the 110's

In the battle of britain... I have several thoughts

1. your range statements whilst true can't be applied IRL in the BOB as the western allies found in 1943 and 1944. Combat aircraft ranges were based on:
no fuss stream take up and form up
cruise to target
10 minutes of combat at full throttle
cruise to home
no fuss landing

the battle of britain wasn't that, FW187's would be tied to escorting bombers which either requires them to fly serpentine courses or operate below cruising speed so they don't overtake them which will reduce real range

on top of that due to the british early warning network, the fighters will be engaged as soon as they cross the coast (if not over the channel on the way there itself as frequently happened) which will force the planes to go full throttle and head home earlier

this is why in practice ME-109's except under exceptional circumstances didn't really get beyond 125 miles of their operating bases in the battle of britain despite having a stated range well in excess of that; dogfighting sucks gas out of your tank

the western allies experienced the same problems, when their fighters had to engage german fighters they dropped tanks and had to dogfight at full throttle which would force them to head home as soon as the engagement was over... the mustang's range in and of itself wasn't all that decisive, it was that they produced thousands and thousands and thousands of them, so that a raid could have 50 percent of it's fighters engage and head home early yet still leave the raid with sufficent escorts to deal with twin engines trying to get at the bombers on the return leg

the germans can't produce the numbers to get that kind of effect let alone in the limited window between the fall of france and winter

on top of that, close escort of bombers against the UK was only needed for daylight penetration raids which were a flawed concept from the start. Doing them against Poland and France in support of rapidly advancing ground forces made sense (and the pilots could be recovered)

Doing that against the UK when Germany wasn't going to go through with Sealion is pointless. If the idea is only to wage economic/trade war with the UK then Germany needs only to bomb ports and ship building facilities at night,dawn and dusk; night fighters were not that dangerous even late into 1942, so the LW can bomb with relative impunity and conserve their daylight assets for more useful tasks in the Med and Russia

So you are either not going to use the fighter in the battle of britain at all (since it's not needed at night) or feed it into the same flawed concept that would still see the LW lose the battle of britain anyway

it's advantages over the 110 are otherwise so minimal that total impact on the war is probably not worth considering

 

[Deleted member 1487]

My engine weight figures come from Janes, 1946, and my opinion of the DB-603 remain unchanged, as do the laws of physics, as pertaining to piston size. A bridge too far.

Even though they fixed the cooling issues with it by late 1943? What was the problem with the piston size?

Wiking,

I've put thought into your concept, including a chat with Dennis Showalter on the subject at a lecture this year

It is important to remember that Goering made the LW a tactical airforce, and the operational and strategic strikes it made always had to be justified to a tactical end (the battle of britain's later stages being the only breaking of this) and more to the point the LW only increased it's focus as a sharp tactical instrument as the war went on (with bombing wings being nearly all transferred to close support missions)

I know this is to be gelled with a larger TL you have where Goering is removed from the picture and thus this could be changed (depending on the date of your POD)

I appreciate the response and thought you put into this.
James Corum disagrees with the assessment of the LW as a tactical air force, as it was Walter Wever that actually built the LW without much input from Goering, except on certain issues, like the Bf110. Later tactical elements were added by Wever's (eventual) replacement Jeschonnek and even then it wasn't really all that well implemented.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Luftwaffe-Creating-Operational-1918-1940/dp/0700608362
I think he makes a convincing case in his book.

Your suggestion in numbers is actually too low, the Germans lost a number of 110's in poland due to their performance issues, the total number for battle of britain at outset is probably more on the order of 400 (especially if you address pilot production issues in your timeline)

Yes, but I quoted operational numbers, not total on the book figures.

The question is does this meaningfully change anything.... in Poland and France I don't think so, they both had no meaningful early warning systems or AA defenses and LW losses were acceptable even in the 110's

Sure.

In the battle of britain... I have several thoughts

1. your range statements whilst true can't be applied IRL in the BOB as the western allies found in 1943 and 1944. Combat aircraft ranges were based on:
no fuss stream take up and form up
cruise to target
10 minutes of combat at full throttle
cruise to home
no fuss landing

the battle of britain wasn't that, FW187's would be tied to escorting bombers which either requires them to fly serpentine courses or operate below cruising speed so they don't overtake them which will reduce real range

Very true, I should have made this clear. With the likely 1300 liter fuel capacity of this version of the Fw187 the operational radius would have been around 400 miles, which would included all of the above. That is still enough range to reach Liverpool from the Channel airbases...or significant linger time over southern England.

on top of that due to the british early warning network, the fighters will be engaged as soon as they cross the coast (if not over the channel on the way there itself as frequently happened) which will force the planes to go full throttle and head home earlier

Sure, but that aids the Fw187s, as it gives them me109 support so they don't have to carry the ball alone for deep raids (which would be nuts IMHO and unnecessary here).

this is why in practice ME-109's except under exceptional circumstances didn't really get beyond 125 miles of their operating bases in the battle of britain despite having a stated range well in excess of that; dogfighting sucks gas out of your tank

Sure, which wouldn't be an issue with the Fw187s.

the western allies experienced the same problems, when their fighters had to engage german fighters they dropped tanks and had to dogfight at full throttle which would force them to head home as soon as the engagement was over... the mustang's range in and of itself wasn't all that decisive, it was that they produced thousands and thousands and thousands of them, so that a raid could have 50 percent of it's fighters engage and head home early yet still leave the raid with sufficent escorts to deal with twin engines trying to get at the bombers on the return leg

the germans can't produce the numbers to get that kind of effect let alone in the limited window between the fall of france and winter

No, but they have much fewer enemy fighters to deal with than the Allies did in 1942-3, plus much lower quality of pilots. The more they can kill with their better equipment, the worse the British pilots gets and the negative feedback loop is fed into. The Bf110 wasn't as bad as popularly portrayed, but they couldn't really operate except under specific circumstances due to their limitations, so didn't contribute anywhere near what they were needed for. Having fewer
but better aircraft that could best the Spitfire in speed and in energy retention adds a whole new dynamic to the fight, where historically the LW couldn't use a large part of its fighter force during the battle.

on top of that, close escort of bombers against the UK was only needed for daylight penetration raids which were a flawed concept from the start. Doing them against Poland and France in support of rapidly advancing ground forces made sense (and the pilots could be recovered)

Doing that against the UK when Germany wasn't going to go through with Sealion is pointless. If the idea is only to wage economic/trade war with the UK then Germany needs only to bomb ports and ship building facilities at night,dawn and dusk; night fighters were not that dangerous even late into 1942, so the LW can bomb with relative impunity and conserve their daylight assets for more useful tasks in the Med and Russia

So you are either not going to use the fighter in the battle of britain at all (since it's not needed at night) or feed it into the same flawed concept that would still see the LW lose the battle of britain anyway

Fully agreed, I was just using this thread as a thought experiment, rather than something I'm going to run with.

it's advantages over the 110 are otherwise so minimal that total impact on the war is probably not worth considering

I don't agree with that, which is why I made this thread. Still, I appreciate your perspective.

 

[BlairWitch749]

wiking


the biggest use I see for this plane is in the maritime role (and maybe high speed photo recon where it could be stripped down and evade interception)

if the Germans in your modified LW employ combat capable (which the condor wasn't) maritime bombers; like a full developed with good engines DO-19 forex, the FW-187 could escort them in the Bay of Biscay to counter British Barrier patrols

the best use for them in the med, where their comparitively long loiter time would make them an excellent top cover fighter for convoys going to africa, it would also do well in raids in egypt where the british didn't have the advanced early warning network (and until 1942 much worse fighter aircraft) they could fly along the railways and coastal highway and inflict considerable damage with cannons (and maybe light bombing) whilst being mostly immune to interception; they could also strafe ships unloading at torbruk at mersa matruh with some success

 

[Just Leo]

Even though they fixed the cooling issues with it by late 1943? What was the problem with the piston size?

Engineering is a ballet danced to a tempo of fixed limitations. Flame propagation and reciprocating mass place limits on what can be done, and DB stepped over the line.

 

[AdA]

Engineering is a ballet danced to a tempo of fixed limitations. Flame propagation and reciprocating mass place limits on what can be done, and DB stepped over the line.

And Jumo with the 213? Over the line or within?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Engineering is a ballet danced to a tempo of fixed limitations. Flame propagation and reciprocating mass place limits on what can be done, and DB stepped over the line.

Can you provide some sourcing for this and that the DB 603 getting its cooling issues under control were mere propaganda?

 

[Just Leo]

And Jumo with the 213? Over the line or within?

My opinion is that it is on the line. It did pass a 50 hour type test. It's capacity is comparable to French, Soviet and British engines of V-12 configuration. However, the Griffon engine never achieved the volumetric efficiency or reliability of the humble Merlin. It was at this size that the beastly Napier Sabre of 24 cylinders was developed. Other 24 cyl. engines were also developed in keeping with the accepted limitations of piston size. It was with this knowledge of limitations, and the complexity involved, that undertaking the design and development of turbine-powered aircraft was accepted and embraced. Historically, they weren't wrong.

 

[Just Leo]

Can you provide some sourcing for this and that the DB 603 getting its cooling issues under control were mere propaganda?

I don't keep a diary or a log. Changing a 50 hour type test to 40 hours to facilitate production doesn't address the problems involved in a problematic engine. It does signify some degree of desperation in the attempt to meet designed performance goals with adequate reliability. Problems faced by big-end bearings are not best described as cooling issues, and weren't actually under control if the engine was to meet higher performance demands.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I don't keep a diary or a log. Changing a 50 hour type test to 40 hours to facilitate production doesn't address the problems involved in a problematic engine. It does signify some degree of desperation in the attempt to meet designed performance goals with adequate reliability. Problems faced by big-end bearings are not best described as cooling issues, and weren't actually under control if the engine was to meet higher performance demands.

AFAIK the issues with the engine were worked out in 1943 and the Me410 that used them didn't have problems with them when they entered service, just as the Do217M was able to get past the first issues they had in 1942 when the engine was still being developed. They rushed the engine in 1940 after taking a 3 year break in development due to lack of funding from mid-1937 to late-1939. The war brought back funding and they had to make up lost ground to get the engine into service; 1942 was too early for the engine to be fully reliable, which it seems it was finally able to be in late 1943. By 1944 it was as reliable as any other engine at that point and wasn't needing overhauls after 40 hours as it was in 1942.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603

Bei der Einführung des DB 603 in den Jahren 1942/1943 gab es anfängliche Probleme mit der Zuverlässigkeit; die geplanten 100 Betriebsstunden bis zur Grundüberholung wurden erst 1944 annähernd erreicht. Zu Beginn mussten die Triebwerke oft schon nach 40 Betriebsstunden ausgetauscht werden.

Problems [ Edit ]
With the introduction of the DB 603 in the years 1942/1943, there were initial problems with the reliability and the planned 100 hours to overhaul in 1944 were approached. To start the engines had to be frequently replaced after only 40 hours.

While it never fully reached the 100 hours between overhauls, it got pretty close and that was in wartime conditions with material shortages of heat resistant metals. Not only that, but the RLM felt confident enough in the engine to give over the Ostmark production facility to its production instead of the Jumo 222:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugmotorenwerke_Ostmark

Da die Probleme mit den in Versuchsflugzeugen eingebauten Jumo 222 nicht rasch genug behoben werden konnten, wurde der Firma Junkers am 24. Dezember 1941 der Auftrag entzogen. Die Werksleitung wurde angewiesen, stattdessen den ausgereifteren Motor DB-603 von Daimler-Benz in Lizenz zu fertigen. Dieser 12-Zylinder-V-Motor war einfacher aufgebaut und standfester. Er wurde unter der Bezeichnung DB-9-603 zum Einheitstriebwerk für Jäger und Zerstörer und trieb – als Doppelmotor (DB-613) – auch den umstrittenen Bomber He-177 an. Bis 1944 wurde er mit Turboladern und Methanoleinspritzung auf eine Startleistung von 2100 PS (1545 kW) gebracht.

Since the problems with the built-in test aircraft Jumo 222 could not be resolved quickly enough, the Junkers was on 24th of December 1941 revoked the order. The plant management was instructed instead to more sophisticated engine DB 603 , Daimler-Benz to manufacture under license. This 12-cylinder V-engine was simpler in design and more durable. He was under the name DB-9 unit 603 for engine and drove for hunters and destroyers - as a double motor (DB-613) - even the controversial bomber He-177 on. Until 1944, he has been associated with turbocharged and methanol injection on a take-off power of 2100 hp (1545 kW).

 

[zoomar]

The Falke was designed as a light single seat fighter. Had the single seater been developed and up-engined, it could easily have become the German equivalent of the P-38 and been a much better long range escort in the BoB than the Bf 110, which was too large and heavy for such a role. The RLM directive to change it into a two seater really killed it, essentially adding lots of dead weight without even adding a rear defensive gun.

However, it is wrong to presume that an aircraft initially designed around one type of engine will automatically perform better with more modern and more powerful engines, so it is pure speculation to hypothesize that the single seat Fw 187 of 1938 could have been progressively re-engined with DB603/605 engines and still been a top-tier air superiority fighter in 1944 capable of meeting allied fighters on even terms. Given its extremely narrow fuselage it would also have been less well-suited as a heavily armed and armored bomber destroyer than the Bf 110, Ju 88, or Me 410. Only in combination with a overall different Luftwaffe strategy with respect to strategic bombing does a long-range escort fighter really makes sense for the Germans.

 

[Just Leo]

it is pure speculation to hypothesize

All true, and succinctly expressed, but contrary to contemporary WI doctrine, wherein we know better. Sorry, I don't use emoticons.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The Falke was designed as a light single seat fighter. Had the single seater been developed and up-engined, it could easily have become the German equivalent of the P-38 and been a much better long range escort in the BoB than the Bf 110, which was too large and heavy for such a role. The RLM directive to change it into a two seater really killed it, essentially adding lots of dead weight without even adding a rear defensive gun.

However, it is wrong to presume that an aircraft initially designed around one type of engine will automatically perform better with more modern and more powerful engines, so it is pure speculation to hypothesize that the single seat Fw 187 of 1938 could have been progressively re-engined with DB603/605 engines and still been a top-tier air superiority fighter in 1944 capable of meeting allied fighters on even terms. Given its extremely narrow fuselage it would also have been less well-suited as a heavily armed and armored bomber destroyer than the Bf 110, Ju 88, or Me 410. Only in combination with a overall different Luftwaffe strategy with respect to strategic bombing does a long-range escort fighter really makes sense for the Germans.

It was apparently flown IOTL with DB605s in 1942-43, giving it the speed of 700km/hr. I don't see why the nose couldn't take two 30mm cannons instead of the 4 machine guns and 2 20mm cannons of the A-0 series. It doesn't need heavy armor, as its speed is its armor (making it difficult to hit by bomber return fire). Sort of like a slower, less heavily armed Me-262.

Edit:
Though the wikipedia article has some issues here is some info about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187

Tank nevertheless directed studies on a wide variety of new versions of the basic airframe, everything from dive bomber, night fighter, fighter-bomber, high-altitude interceptor (with greater wingspan and lengthened rear fuselage) and others. These sported a variety of engines, including the Daimler-Benz DB 601, DB 605 and even the BMW 801 radial.

If that doesn't work for you, then as you said the LW could use it for a different doctrine, which is having the Fw187s tackle the escorts, disrupting them, while the FW190 Sturmböcke does the bomber killing. It would basically function then as an early (1942-43) Fw-190D or Ta-152, rather than a lighter Me-410 or Ta-154.

 

[Just Leo]

The paucity of available information and photographs of the earlier Daimler Benz engined Falke, except for a simple statement of maximum speed, is accompanied by a relatively absolute absence of print as well on a DB-605-engined variant. There is plenty of recorded history which does not establish such an event as having taken place at all. The only recorded history was that production was again denied at that time, which would be startling news if performance was indeed so startling.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The paucity of available information and photographs of the earlier Daimler Benz engined Falke, except for a simple statement of maximum speed, is accompanied by a relatively absolute absence of print as well on a DB-605-engined variant. There is plenty of recorded history which does not establish such an event as having taken place at all. The only recorded history was that production was again denied at that time, which would be startling news if performance was indeed so startling.

Apparently the info is in the book I recommended to you earlier.
Edit:
Production was locked in to other types and the RLM obviously didn't feel the need to tool for another type was necessary at that time. If the Fw187 was already tooled for there are sources from Focke-Wulf, which can be accessed thanks to the book I mentioned to you earlier, that records the results of testing of the Fw187 airframe with the DB605 engine. Below is the result of that testing.

From the link in the OP:

 

[Just Leo]

I thoroughly read both reviews of the book.

"Not as good as I thought"

"I am kind of disappointed. Mr. Harmann try to make a great book, but it is simply to difficult to get enough information about FW187 to make one"

A graph of calculated performance figures, not including those for DB-600, is proof of nothing, isn't it? There's precious little to verify the flight of the V6, and less than that for the -605 variant. Is there some shortcoming with the V6 that they didn't want us to know about? I can't make a decision. It is simply too difficult to get enough information about the FW187 to make one.