Fun with monarchies!

[WilyBadger]

If there's one thing we don't have in North and South America, it's monarchies (Commonwealth nations and colonial areas not withstanding)! We've had them in the past. Both Brazil and Mexico had Emperors.

Monarchies endlessly fascinate me, so let's try to get a couple in the New World that last up until, say, at least 1950. Go to it, kids!

 

[vtmarxist]

Well, Queen Elizabeth II is still the Monarch of Canada, even though she lives in England, and she has as much power in Canada as she does in England.

King Brigham Young of the Mormon Kingdom of Deseret.

 

[WilyBadger]

Yeah, but I said the Commonwealth nations don't count.

 

[vtmarxist]

Yeah, but I said the Commonwealth nations don't count.

Sorry, I did not realize that, so any commentary on the suggestion I gave?

 

[WilyBadger]

King Brigham I? An interesting notion, except how would Desert remain independant and not become part of the USA?

 

[Lord Grattan]

There was Emperor Norton.

Seriously, there are several TL's where monarchs rule various parts of North or South America. Haiti also had emperors.

 

[vtmarxist]

King Brigham I? An interesting notion, except how would Desert remain independant and not become part of the USA?

Correction: Deseret.

I don't know, this is alternate history after all, maybe assuming that America lost the Mexican-American War. Because Utah (Deseret) was given to the Mormons by the Spanish I believe.

 

[SilverPhantom2]

Deseret was never independent. The Mormons first migrated to the Ute Desert in Alta California which was then part of Mexico. After the war, they were under rule of the United States.

I don't know, monarchies tend to bore me, just a preference. Republican systems of government are much more fun to work with IMO. A lot of room for debate and instant change. Monarchies tend to be "Good King, Bad King, Great King, Bad King, Bad King, Bad King, Revolution." At least, as a trend, IMO. Too much in breeding. If the European monarchies didn't do so much of it, it might make things more interesting in the gene pool.

Imagine: a Mexican King on the throne in Washington.

Howabout King Houston of Texas?

 

[WilyBadger]

A Mexican King on the throne in Washington? Ok.

The War of 1812 turns out to be an even bigger failure for the USA. As a result, the United States of America is weakened significantly, though not to the point of becoming English again.

Meantime, down in Mexico, they manage to get their act a little more together than in our timeline. They fight the American-Mexican war from 1831 - 1833 and it ends when they manage to advance up through the South and into Washington. Once there, their general declares himself King. This lasts for, oh, a few years until the US, under the command of one General Robert E Lee, is finally able to chase him out of there.

Very non-specific, but, hey, it has some potential, or at least that's what I'll pretend.

 

[Codae]

Deseret was never independent. The Mormons first migrated to the Ute Desert in Alta California which was then part of Mexico. After the war, they were under rule of the United States.

I don't know, monarchies tend to bore me, just a preference. Republican systems of government are much more fun to work with IMO. A lot of room for debate and instant change. Monarchies tend to be "Good King, Bad King, Great King, Bad King, Bad King, Bad King, Revolution." At least, as a trend, IMO. Too much in breeding. If the European monarchies didn't do so much of it, it might make things more interesting in the gene pool.

Imagine: a Mexican King on the throne in Washington.

Howabout King Houston of Texas?

For some reason, I think neither Texans (Americans) nor Americans would support a monarchy in Texas...

It's the most obvious part* of American culture that we don't have a monarchy...

*I am exaggerating a bit.

 

[WilyBadger]

It's the most obvious part* of American culture that we don't have a monarchy...

*I am exaggerating a bit.

I always thought it was our total obession over all things celebrity that was the most obvious part of American culture. We might not have kings, but we certainly have The King!

 

[rcduggan]

The Empire of Haiti, Empire of Brazil, and Empire of Mexico all survive. There we have three kingdoms. We could also have that French guy succeed in creating a Mapuche kingdom of Araucania and Patagonia in the 19th century. Those could possibly all survive.


If you want the US to be a monarchy, I think you would need different founding fathers. There was some minor talk about putting a Prussian on the American throne (interesting timeline there), but that never came to anything, obviously.

 

[SilverPhantom2]

Probaby not a vector for an American monarchy, but one that would make monarchies more prevalent: the Mexican Empire survives. Agustin de Iturbide remains Emperor of Mexico in 1821. The Empire loses Texas to guerrilla warfare. James K. Polk never tries to become President, but he throws his influence over to Lewis Cass and helps him get elected in 1844. In 1845, Cass implements the same policies Polk would in OTL, starting the Mexican-American War. The only problem is that with the monarchy, Mexico has a stronger armed forces and is better united. The War goes on through 1848. Cass wins reelection by a small majority. Finally, Whig voices against the war, specifically Henry Clay who begins training his own political heir (just as Jackson did with Polk in OTL) in Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln gives thundering speeches through the House along with Robert Toombs. Finally, The war takes a turnaround when a Mexican offensive led by Santa Anna goes through Texas and even penetrates Louisiana and Missouri. (The goals were New Orleans and St. Louis, respectively). The attack fails, but it ruins all confidence in President Cass and the war effort.

In 1852, the Lincoln/Toombs ticket wins in a landslide. Effects:

1. Mexican War ends with a Mexican victory. Often termed the "Mexican Mistake." The border of Texas is redrawn, significantly reduced in size.

2. The Whig party remains a major American political party. The Democrats are eventually reduced to nothing when the Populists finally take over.

3. Mexico, formerly considered a weak monarchy, is now considered more powerful than the United States; nullifying the Monroe Doctrine, and proving that Monarchies are more powerful than republics.

4. California once sought help from the United States. Americans continued to feed arms and supplies to the Bear Flag Republic for a short while, but President Lincoln stopped that. Instead, the Californians look to Great Britain who is only too happy to oblige. California will eventually receive independence with a King on the throne in San Francisco.

 

[Nicomacheus]

1) A Rump Tsardom in Alaska (no US purchase).

2) Any number of the schemes for BNA or Spanish America that see the creation of new kingdoms.

3) Bolivar is a bit more Napoleonic and Gran Colombia is an Empire.

 

[aktarian]

Thew House of Bush & The House of Kennedy

 

[vtmarxist]

4. California once sought help from the United States. Americans continued to feed arms and supplies to the Bear Flag Republic for a short while, but President Lincoln stopped that. Instead, the Californians look to Great Britain who is only too happy to oblige. California will eventually receive independence with a King on the throne in San Francisco.

I think it would end up more like California becoming a Dominion of the British Empire, making whoever is the British Monarch the Sovereign, instead of an actual King from California. Besides that good timeline.

 

[oberdada]

1) A Rump Tsardom in Alaska (no US purchase).

Starting in 1917, 1905 or when?
interesting idea!

 

[Nicomacheus]

Starting in 1917, 1905 or when?
interesting idea!

Well, it's probably open to question. First, one would have to explain why the US didn't buy Alaska, but that's not too hard since William Seward was mocked for it in 1867. Second, you'd need to explain how the British and / or Canada didn't force it out the Russians some time in the 1880s; at the very least, the Great Game may have a minor front in the Yukon.

Then of course, the Yukon and Alaska Gold Rushes will need to be a little different.

Then the Russo-Japanese war has to break out but the Japanese need to not attack Alaska.

At that point, you just need a sucessful Russian Revolution of some sort to occur. When it does so may be open to question, but it wouldn't be too hard.

 

[oberdada]

Well, it's probably open to question. First, one would have to explain why the US didn't buy Alaska, but that's not too hard since William Seward was mocked for it in 1867. Second, you'd need to explain how the British and / or Canada didn't force it out the Russians some time in the 1880s; at the very least, the Great Game may have a minor front in the Yukon.

Then of course, the Yukon and Alaska Gold Rushes will need to be a little different.

Then the Russo-Japanese war has to break out but the Japanese need to not attack Alaska.

At that point, you just need a sucessful Russian Revolution of some sort to occur. When it does so may be open to question, but it wouldn't be too hard.

Let's just say there is no Gold rush like in TL-191.

Japan tries to take Alaska, but TR makes the Japanese give it back to the Tzar.
During the 1917 Revolution, the Tzar and his Family manage to flew to Omsk.
The Russian Civil War is a couple of years longer, but ends with the last 2 loyal monarchistic Brigades beeing transportet to Alasca with the help of US and Japanese Fleets.

Japan anexes Vladivostok.

The Tzarist Government is still the officially recognized Government of Russia. Germany recognizes the Soviet Union in 1927, France in 1935, the USA in 1942, Vatican City never!!!

 

[SilverPhantom2]

I think it would end up more like California becoming a Dominion of the British Empire, making whoever is the British Monarch the Sovereign, instead of an actual King from California. Besides that good timeline.

I considered it, but I figured a Californian king would just emphasize the different view point going around the world that monarchies > republics. Don't know, isn't a finished TL yet. Just ideas with a British California and an earlier Lincoln Presidency with COMPLETELY different issues.