From The Streets of Detroit: America's Auto Powerhouse

[Hörnla]

Which, if anything, looks even more like it would be good as an Opel.

I wouldn't complain about it, looks like a very decent car to me. The reason why I used the old model was that I drove one on holidays as a rented car and was quite satisfied.

OTL, such a re-labelled import would be a niche solution to put at least some new life into Opel which suffered greatly from abandoning the market for larger-cars which allow Audi, Merc and BMW to have their huge profit margins.

 

[TheMann]

I wouldn't complain about it, looks like a very decent car to me. The reason why I used the old model was that I drove one on holidays as a rented car and was quite satisfied.

Impalas aren't bad cars, for American roads they are in fact quite good. But I suspect that European drivers might think differently, but then again the Impala chassis is quite stiff and its fabrication is strong, so i figure even if it wasn't done well for Europeans it would merely be a matter of returning the chassis to work. I also figure that the American big car that Opel will really want to ape is the Cadillac Seville (OTL's XTS), but I did have the idea of selling that in Europe, though with just the very highest Cadillacs sold in Europe so as to not screw up Opel's marketing of their own high-end machines.

OTL, such a re-labelled import would be a niche solution to put at least some new life into Opel which suffered greatly from abandoning the market for larger-cars which allow Audi, Merc and BMW to have their huge profit margins.

A true point, but later on I would expect Opel to want to build their own rivals to the C-Class/3-Series/A4 and E-Class/5-Series/A6.

 

[Hörnla]

Impalas aren't bad cars, for American roads they are in fact quite good.

I don't see that much of a difference between American and European roads, it very much depends on where you go whether you have shiny virginlike ways, or pothole-riddled testrides ahead of you.
But I know that there is a difference in what kind of driving-feeling the two markets prefer, however, other brands can adjust to it, too.

A true point, but later on I would expect Opel to want to build their own rivals to the C-Class/3-Series/A4 and E-Class/5-Series/A6.

That would certainly be the case in the long run, though probably on a shared platform, too.

ITTL, a stronger GM might allow Opel to continue its bigger models Omega and Senator (the latter probably re-named at some point) instead of cutting the brand down.
For a variety of reasons (one of them GM not bankrupting) OTL's situation is probably avoided where Opel would need a blood-transfusion to at least offer something, even if it is actually a purely American car, in that segment.

 

[TheMann]

No specifics, just summarize which city has which system.

Alright then, here goes.

Cities with Rapid Transit / Subway Lines

- Atlanta
- Baltimore
- Boston
- Chicago
- Cleveland
- Los Angeles
- Miami
- New York City/Jersey City (#1 in subway mileage)
- Philadelphia
- San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose (#2 in subway mileage)
- Washington (#3 in subway mileage)

Cities with S-Bahn Rail / Commuter Rail Lines

- Albuquerque (New Mexico Rail Runner)
- Atlanta (Georgia Rail)
- Austin (Texas Capital Rail)
- Baltimore (MARC)
- Boston (MBTA Commuter Rail)
- Chicago (METRA, South Shore RR) (#2 in commuter rail mileage)
- Dallas / Fort Worth (Trinity Railway Express)
- Denver (RTD Rail System)
- Detroit (Michigan Transit Detroit)
- Houston / Galveston (Houston Rail Transit)
- Los Angeles (Metrolink, CalTrans Los Angeles)
- Miami (Tri-Rail)
- Milwaukee / Madison (Wisconsin Star)
- Minneapolis / St. Paul (Red Rock Rail)
- Nashville (Music City Star)
- New York City (Long Island RR, Metro-North RR, NJ Transit) (#1 in commuter rail mileage)
- Philadelphia (SEPTA, NJ Transit) (#3 in commuter rail mileage)
- Providence (MBTA Commuter Rail)
- Salt Lake City (Utah FrontRunner)
- San Diego (CalTrans San Diego)
- San Francisco / San Jose / Oakland / Berkeley (CalTrans San Francisco)
- Seattle / Tacoma (Sounder)
- Washington (MARC, Virginia Railway Express)

Cities with Light Rail Lines

- Albany
- Anchorage
- Atlanta
- Baltimore
- Boston
- Buffalo
- Charlotte
- Cleveland
- Columbus
- Dallas / Fort Worth
- Denver (#3 in light rail mileage)
- Detroit
- Honolulu
- Houston (#2 in light rail mileage)
- Indianapolis
- Jersey City / Bayonne
- Las Vegas
- Los Angeles (#1 in light rail mileage)
- Louisville
- Minneapolis / St. Paul
- New Orleans
- Newark
- Norfolk / Virginia Beach / Newport News
- Oakland / Berkeley
- Orlando
- Philadelphia / Camden
- Phoenix
- Pittsburgh
- Portland
- Sacramento
- San Antonio
- San Diego
- San Francisco
- San Jose
- San Juan
- St. Louis
- Seattle / Tacoma

In terms of actual track mileage among all of the systems, Los Angeles has overtaken New York for having the largest amount of track mileage, though New York easily beats all of the others in ridership.

Largest Track Mileage (overall)
#1 Los Angeles
#2 New York City (includes Bayonne and Jersey City light rail and LIRR)
#3 Chicago
#4 San Francisco
#5 Detroit
#6 Washington
#7 Boston
#8 Houston
#9 Philadelphia
#10 Atlanta

Largest Ridership (overall)
#1 New York City (which has a big margin over every other city)
#2 Los Angeles
#3 Chicago
#4 Washington
#5 Boston
#6 San Francisco
#7 Philadelphia
#8 Atlanta
#9 Detroit
#10 Houston

 

[THE OBSERVER]

Thanks. Looks like New York, San Francisco, and Washington pretty much have the same rankings as IOTL, rapid transit-wise. I believe we can make our transit systems that we have like what you propose.

 

[SactoMan101]

I'd like to add that in this alternate timeline, the Bay Area Rapid Transit system would look very much like the current system, but has the following changes:

1. Rail gauge is standard gauge, not the unusual wider gauge now used.

2. The line that ends in Milbrae now goes all the way down the San Francisco Peninsula to San Jose, then further all the way to Gilroy.

3. The East Bay line now extends from Fremont through San Jose to Los Gatos.

4. The two lines cross in downtown San Jose underground in a transit center that reminds people of Shibuya or Shinjuku Stations in Tokyo.

5. The line to now to Dublin extends all the way to the east end of Livermore, following I-580.

6. The line now to West Antioch will soon extend all the way to Brentwood (line opening later spring 2013).

7. The line now to Richmond now ends in Vallejo, and construction is under way to extend all the way to Fairfield.

8. From Daly City, a line goes north through western San Francisco, then under the Golden Gate to follow essentially the old Northwestern Pacific railroad route all the way to Santa Rosa. The SF Muni F Wharves line is extended westward from Fisherman's Wharf to a new "Presidio Station" that connects with this BART line, so BART riders coming into San Francisco will ride the F Wharves trolleys back to the Financial District.

In short, the BART system as originally envisioned in the early 1960's is fully built.

 

[THE OBSERVER]

I'd like to add that in this alternate timeline, the Bay Area Rapid Transit system would look very much like the current system, but has the following changes:

1. Rail gauge is standard gauge, not the unusual wider gauge now used.

2. The line that ends in Milbrae now goes all the way down the San Francisco Peninsula to San Jose, then further all the way to Gilroy.

3. The East Bay line now extends from Fremont through San Jose to Los Gatos.

4. The two lines cross in downtown San Jose underground in a transit center that reminds people of Shibuya or Shinjuku Stations in Tokyo.

5. The line to now to Dublin extends all the way to the east end of Livermore, following I-580.

6. The line now to West Antioch will soon extend all the way to Brentwood (line opening later spring 2013).

7. The line now to Richmond now ends in Vallejo, and construction is under way to extend all the way to Fairfield.

8. From Daly City, a line goes north through western San Francisco, then under the Golden Gate to follow essentially the old Northwestern Pacific railroad route all the way to Santa Rosa. The SF Muni F Wharves line is extended westward from Fisherman's Wharf to a new "Presidio Station" that connects with this BART line, so BART riders coming into San Francisco will ride the F Wharves trolleys back to the Financial District.

In short, the BART system as originally envisioned in the early 1960's is fully built.

I like it with the Standard Gauge, hope they change it to that one day IOTL. Is that what you envision TheMann, for SF? BTW, I think Metro is pretty much as is, but has an additional downtown subway line serving Georgetown and the Tyson's Corner extension is built much earlier, like in the 1980s.

 

[TheMann]

I'd like to add that in this alternate timeline, the Bay Area Rapid Transit system would look very much like the current system, but has the following changes:

This is very, very ambitious, but then again it is California, the country is a lot richer and more concerned with public transport than OTL and San Francisco has traditionally been a leader in this stuff, so we'll go with this.

 

[SactoMan101]

About that transit center in San Jose I mentioned: it will have a shopping center/food court as part of the center and the corporate headquarters of Adobe, Autodesk, Facebook and Twitter are all within three blocks of the transit center.

 

[Hörnla]

What I like very much about this thread is how a Tech-timeline describes, in a thickly veiled way, a fundamentally changed American political and economical development.

I started to wonder what butterflies it means for Germany. The FRG had a certain tendency to belatedly emulate American trends for a long time. In the context of this timeline this would probably keep the unions in Germany stronger, too, and keep the level of average wages higher in international comparison.

Would this be affordable for the German economy? The very strong American transport and car industry would hurt it at first sight. On the other hand, a US economy much more based on manufacturing instead of the bogus...errr....financial sector and granting the American middle and lower-middle classes a considerably higher income creates a huge demand for imported goods (available to the US due to also more exports being possible).
This will further boost two columns of the German economy: machinery and the multitude of "hidden champions", hundreds of rather unknown companies which are specialized in niche-products and solutions in which they are global champions (although even in the next city nobody knows their name). Both highly depend on the well-being of the global manufacturing economy. Add to that a probably stronger $/weaker DM or €.
Add to that that a higher income level in Germany creating more internal demand (which was very much lacking during the 2000s OTL), which again - Germans are Germans - translates in cars, even our companies between Wolfsburg and Stuttgart shouldn't suffer that much when compared to OTL.

Just my twopence from here.

 

[THE OBSERVER]

About that transit center in San Jose I mentioned: it will have a shopping center/food court as part of the center and the corporate headquarters of Adobe, Autodesk, Facebook and Twitter are all within three blocks of the transit center.

Awesome concept, man.

 

[TheMann]

About that transit center in San Jose I mentioned: it will have a shopping center/food court as part of the center and the corporate headquarters of Adobe, Autodesk, Facebook and Twitter are all within three blocks of the transit center.

Where in San Jose is it? You see, I do anticipate lots of major American cities, particularly ones with tech-heavy economies, going up instead of out. A major transit hub would surely mean a cluster of skyscrapers and large buildings in the immediate vicinity, as well as possibly residential skyscrapers for people who want to use BART to commute into San Francisco.

 

[TheMann]

What I like very much about this thread is how a Tech-timeline describes, in a thickly veiled way, a fundamentally changed American political and economical development.

I started to wonder what butterflies it means for Germany. The FRG had a certain tendency to belatedly emulate American trends for a long time. In the context of this timeline this would probably keep the unions in Germany stronger, too, and keep the level of average wages higher in international comparison.

Would this be affordable for the German economy? The very strong American transport and car industry would hurt it at first sight. On the other hand, a US economy much more based on manufacturing instead of the bogus...errr....financial sector and granting the American middle and lower-middle classes a considerably higher income creates a huge demand for imported goods (available to the US due to also more exports being possible).
This will further boost two columns of the German economy: machinery and the multitude of "hidden champions", hundreds of rather unknown companies which are specialized in niche-products and solutions in which they are global champions (although even in the next city nobody knows their name). Both highly depend on the well-being of the global manufacturing economy. Add to that a probably stronger $/weaker DM or €.
Add to that that a higher income level in Germany creating more internal demand (which was very much lacking during the 2000s OTL), which again - Germans are Germans - translates in cars, even our companies between Wolfsburg and Stuttgart shouldn't suffer that much when compared to OTL.

Just my twopence from here.

That makes a fair bit of sense. I've also had the thought that as a result of China not sucking up such a large quantity of the world's manufacturing industries it would mean lots of spillover into other Asian nations, both already well-developed ones like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore and less developed ones like Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, India and Indonesia. Likewise, this TL also has South America starting their current growth pattern a decade or so earlier and South Africa doing rather better in the 1990s and 2000s, both of which translates into greater markets for industries both in the United States and indeed in Germany.

I think in this world Volkswagen would lose out some - you are right in pointing out that strong demand at home and abroad will help, in the European market they have surviving competition from Britain in the form of Gurney Austin Rover, Opel in better shape and Peugeot-Citroen and Renault in better shape, and the little Volkswagen Up isn't gonna be the home run in this world because Austin, Reynard, Tata and the Japanese have beaten them to the punch. Porsche I suspect would do rather better here (stronger wealth on both sides of the Atlantic as well as in export markets) and Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz will do just fine. I figure Europe won't be harmed by a stronger economy in the Americas to any real degree, if anything they will benefit in a bunch of areas.

 

[THE OBSERVER]

Where in San Jose is it? You see, I do anticipate lots of major American cities, particularly ones with tech-heavy economies, going up instead of out. A major transit hub would surely mean a cluster of skyscrapers and large buildings in the immediate vicinity, as well as possibly residential skyscrapers for people who want to use BART to commute into San Francisco.

Perhaps that should be a new policy for our country, In and Up, or Retract and Rise.

 

[Sheridan]

Long time since I've logged in here, but I love yout Timelines, TheMann.

Quick questions from a parochial Aussie who knows bugger-all about US cars:

* you mentioned that the Australian Ford Falcon was being sold in the States. How long did this last (perhaps all the way up to the current-generation BA/BF/FG, or did the apalling styling of the AU kill it off)? Similarly, does the Holden Commodore get exported to the US, Gulf, and GB?
* Does Holden still host most of GMs OS RWD expertise, or has the resurgent US industry retained a lot of that skill locally instead of moving to FWD almost across the board?
*Is the Cruze ITTL different from the joke it is considered to be IOTL?
* Does the ECOmmodore get built?

Cheers.

 

[TheMann]

Quick questions from a parochial Aussie who knows bugger-all about US cars:

* you mentioned that the Australian Ford Falcon was being sold in the States. How long did this last (perhaps all the way up to the current-generation BA/BF/FG, or did the apalling styling of the AU kill it off)? Similarly, does the Holden Commodore get exported to the US, Gulf, and GB?

Both the Commodore and Falcon have been in the US market since the 1990s, though both are also now assembled in North America. The AU Falcon didn't last long in production, for the styling reasons. The Commodore was first imported as the Pontiac Bonneville in 1998, an arrangement that ran until 2010, when after the Pontiac brand was sold to Magna, it became the Chevrolet Caprice. The Commodore was sold as the Holden Lumina in the Middle East, New Zealand and South Africa, and in the United Kingdom and Ireland as the Vauxhall VXR8.

* Does Holden still host most of GMs OS RWD expertise, or has the resurgent US industry retained a lot of that skill locally instead of moving to FWD almost across the board?

GM did use front-wheel-drive in a number of applications, but nearly all of GM's larger vehicles remained rear wheel drive, or in many cases (including the Oldsmobile Aurora and post-1992 Cadillac Seville) being all-wheel-drive. Holden began working with US designers on platforms starting with the VN Commodore in 1988. Australia is widely used as a testing place for many GM cars, for a variety of reasons, and GM's interest in its Australian division got rather more pronounced after GM paid off Holden's debts and recapitalized the company in December 1986. Holden's Lang Lang proving ground in Victoria and extreme conditions test center at Broken Hill in western New South Wales are common places for upcoming GM cars to be seen out being proven.

*Is the Cruze ITTL different from the joke it is considered to be IOTL?

The Chevrolet / Holden Cruze is widely considered to be, along with the Ford Focus, to be the finest small cars ever engineered in Detroit and a worthy rival to any car in the same class, anywhere. Cruze models sold in Australia and New Zealand are made in Holden's plant at Elizabeth in South Australia.

* Does the ECOmmodore get built?

It does, though by the time it hits production, it uses NiMH batteries and a 2.2-liter turbocharged inline-four. The four-door coupe design of the ECOmmodore is also seen on the VX, VY and VZ Commodores.

 

[athleticsfan2kx]

Well I Also Got a Question, Despite I'm Doing Days of Thunder: The Alternate NASCAR Thread which needs writers so you can click this link in My Signature and Here's The Question

Does The Following NASCAR Drivers Exist ITTL?

- Travis Pastrana
- Ricky Carmichael
- Danica Patrick
- Erin Crocker

Also: How about Mack Trucks and Truck Stops?

 

[TheMann]

- Travis Pastrana

Pastrana races in Indycar in this world. He first ran an Indycar test after challenging Three-time Indy 500 winner Helio Castroneves to race him in Rallycross in the 2010 X Games. Helio took him up on his challenge and beat him, though both were beaten by Gold Medalist Kimi Raikkonen. Pastrana ran his first Indycar event at the 2011 Indy 500, qualifying 26th and finishing 7th, winning the Indy 500 rookie of the year honors. Pastrana split his 2012 between NASCAR Nationwide, Indycar and Motocross, but he was signed to Team Penske for the full 2013 Indycar season.

- Ricky Carmichael

Ran in NASCAR Nationwide in 2009, 2010 and 2011, but found success hard to come by, and headed to IMSA instead. After sharing the 2012 IMSA Prototype Challenge class championship with Kyle Marcelli, he was signed as a full-time driver for the Cadillac Le Mans Prototype Program for 2013.

- Danica Patrick

Also in Indycars, driving the #27 GoDaddy Swift-Chevrolet for Andretti Autosport. Ran selected NASCAR rounds in 2010 and a full season in Sprint Cup in 2011, but left NASCAR in annoyance after being punted (quite deliberately) out of the lead in a Sprint Cup race at Atlanta by Kurt Busch. Has six Indycar wins (two in 2007, three in 2009, one in 2012), and won the Petit Le Mans with David Brabham and Dane Cameron in a Cadillac Northstar SR10 in 2012.

- Erin Crocker

NASCAR Sprint Cup series competitor, has been since 2008. Caused a huge uproar in 2008 when teammates Jeremy Mayfield and Kyle Busch both complained publicly about Ray Evernham's relationship with Crocker, causing rounds of lawsuits and bitterness. Crocker was the first female winner of a Sprint Cup race, winning the fall 2010 race at Phoenix.

 

[SactoMan101]

Where in San Jose is it? You see, I do anticipate lots of major American cities, particularly ones with tech-heavy economies, going up instead of out. A major transit hub would surely mean a cluster of skyscrapers and large buildings in the immediate vicinity, as well as possibly residential skyscrapers for people who want to use BART to commute into San Francisco.

The station will be built entirely underground just east of the San Jose Convention Center in the middle of downtown. When the passengers come to the surface, they see a spectacular shopping center with many restaurants--essentially the Santana Row shopping center but instead of being built just south of Valley Fair it is built in this alternate timeline downtown. There are secured and guarded underground entrances to the office buildings used by Adobe, Autodesk, Facebook and Twitter directly from the underground station.

Indeed, the main architects of this project modeled it directly from what was done at Shinjuku Station in Tokyo.

But getting back on topic, I believe 2020 will be the year the electric car finally becomes a viable replacement for petroleum-fueled vehicles. Thanks to a breakthrough high-density carbon-nanotube supercapacitor battery design, electric car batteries are now the same volume size as conventional automobile fuel tanks, goes anywhere between 800 and 1,000 kilometers (497 to 621 miles) per full charge, can withstand many charge cycles, and only needs about eight minutes to fully charge the battery pack from any commercial SAE J1772 AC/DC combo charger. The first vehicles to take advantage of this breakthrough battery technology are the 4th generation Honda Fit, 2nd-generation Ford B-Max wagon, 3rd-generation Chevrolet Meriva, and several other "tall wagon" models based off B-segment platforms.

 

[phx1138]

Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme which they would call the Custom Cruiser

Nitpick: doesn't GM still own the trademark on those names, even after selling Olds?