From Embassy Row In Lima To The Kips Of Belfast

I saw in his Wiki entry that George Brown was a catholic, well fully towards the end of his life! I was wondering if the UK had a Catholic PM as the troubles in Ulster hotted up, would anything have changed? Mind you Jim Callaghan was an Atheist and it did not improve the lot of Ulster Taigs! Then again the conflict was never about religion in any case!
 
The religion of the UK PM would make no difference to the Troubles. I have to say that the use of the word 'Taigs' for the 'Unionists/Protestants' makes me uncomfortable; it is the same as calling the 'Nationalists/Republicans/Catholics' Fenians which is certainly considered offensive.
 
'Taig' is actually a term used for Catholics in Ulster/Scotland and it can be taken as more offensive than 'Fenian'! The Protestant equivalent is 'Jaffa'. BTW I am a Taig!
 
I saw in his Wiki entry that George Brown was a catholic, well fully towards the end of his life! I was wondering if the UK had a Catholic PM as the troubles in Ulster hotted up, would anything have changed? Mind you Jim Callaghan was an Atheist and it did not improve the lot of Ulster Taigs! Then again the conflict was never about religion in any case!

Probably not any difference. The key phrase in the 'troubles' came from Thatcher, concerning Britains stragetic interest. Control both sides of the North Channel and the boomers can stay submerged undetected by Soviet SSN's. Only after the fall of the Iron Curtain did the British surrender. Ps they didnt tell the Dopy Unionst Party that so don't let on. :)
 
Probably not any difference. The key phrase in the 'troubles' came from Thatcher, concerning Britains stragetic interest. Control both sides of the North Channel and the boomers can stay submerged undetected by Soviet SSN's. Only after the fall of the Iron Curtain did the British surrender. Ps they didnt tell the Dopy Unionst Party that so don't let on. :)

... Which is totally why it was the Labour government in the 40's that committed to maintaining Northern Ireland as part of Britain until the majority of the populace wanted otherwise. Y'know, before we had a nuclear deterrent, or boomers. Although, apparently the town I'm from was targeted by the Soviets due to the above reason - it's like >20 miles between us and the Mull of Kintyre, so it's a chokepoint for subs.

Realistically, I can't see anything changing with a Catholic PM in the UK. Perhaps slightly warmer relations with the south, but to the IRA he'll still be a Brit. Paisley might kick up a fuss about a "Popish plot," but that's not really going to be believed outside his usual circle of nutters, unless London goes totally against character and actually forces an end to partition.
 
As long as the majority of the population support the Union no British government (apart from a Tony Benn ultra-left Labour) will sell them down the river. It's that simple.
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
Absolutely no difference to policy.
Maybe a little more tension in Unionist-UK inter-party relations, if someone foolish is careless with language.

The only real difference might arise from that. A clearer definition of the community identities in political discourse.
Even that might not survive the tenure of a specific PM, though.

Falkenburg
 
... Which is totally why it was the Labour government in the 40's that committed to maintaining Northern Ireland as part of Britain until the majority of the populace wanted otherwise. Y'know, before we had a nuclear deterrent, or boomers. Although, apparently the town I'm from was targeted by the Soviets due to the above reason - it's like >20 miles between us and the Mull of Kintyre, so it's a chokepoint for subs

the troubles didn't start until the late 60's. Until then Catholics & Prods got on ok, much like as in Scotland. During the marching season when Orangemen marched their catholic neighbours were spectators and looked after their Protestant neighbours interests when they were away. Local Hibs men marched behind orange drums etc. NI wanted to remain UK. RoI didn't really care so to UK government NI didn't matter. Only when SSBN's came on line did we become important & that co incidentally when the prods and Catholics fell out.
 
Actually you had the first Troubles in the 20s, followed by minor IRA campaigns building up into a crescendo of fail in the IRA Border Campaign in the early 1950s. The 1969 Troubles were only the most recent in a long series.

It's simplistic to say that Catholics and Protestants got on before 1969 in either Scotland or Northern Ireland - If Catholics and Prods got on in between 1922 and 1969, you wouldn't have the violence in 1935 in Belfast that de-housed 2,000 Catholics and killed 9. You wouldn't have sectarian violence at Old Firm matches, nor the driving out of Belfast Celtic FC after matchday violence playing Linfield in 1948.

Catholics were certainly more repressed and less able to express their disillusionment, and economic factors in the south made a United Ireland unpalatable to everyone in the North. Once you take away the economic boom in NI by the late 60s, combined with increased Catholic education and urbanisation you've got the recipe for the Troubles - nothing to do with the Submarines.

Are you suggesting that the UK only holds on to NI to keep the approaches to Faslane secure? :confused:
 
The 1920 fighting was about partition. The 1950's campaign failed because the Catholics did not support it. (unless you're a prod who believes the B men beat them).
Catholics were under represented more due to self refusal that prod oppression.
Fact prod population declined down south by 90% catholic population increased up north. Which country oppressed whose minority?
13 of the first 15 police officers murdered by republican terrorists were Roman Catholic.
One of the main concerns of the 'civil rights' movement was that catholic housing in Doire didn't have an inside toilet in the 60's. When the troubles ended catholic school children were invited to the Fountain Estate on the west bank (a prod estate) they were alarmed to discover that at the end of the 90's there were houses on that estate that still had outside loos.
I'm not saying there was not sectarian differences but that they were similar to Scotland's. Ballymena United's team were attacked and burned by Derry City fans at the Brandywell in Doire. (Londonderry for non Irish readers)
You don't see bombs going off or nightly shootings in Glasgow or Edinburgh. You didn't get them here before the troubles.
Captain O'Neil introduced housing reforms on a 60-40 ratio before civil rights. He was brought down by loyalist bigots for this.
Consider this question, why would England want to keep us in the union?
Before the troubles the border was a line drawn on the map, the common people on this island ignored it. The currency was the same on both sides and the prices of goods was the same.
Then came Polaris!!!
Back to thread would a Catholic PM change any thing. Answer NO because the big picture wouldn't change. Put Powell or Benn who were both anti nuclear I would suggest they would. Benn simply Cheerios NI, Powell wouldve called unionist bluff, integrate fully into UK or get out.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to portray Catholics as blameless victims, but it's a fact that they suffered a fair degree of repression - gerrymandering, favouritism and workplace discrimination from their colleagues were rampant. I simply view 1969 as the spark that set off a powder keg, but that there were massive problems beforehand.

Furthermore, you did have bombings both in NI, Scotland and England on the part of the IRA prior to 1969 - the Northern Campaign and Border Campaign both had them. I disagree with the fact that it was simply Catholic indifference that led to the failure of these campaigns - the fact that Dublin interned anyone who so much as whispered a pro-IRA word helped immeasurably :p

England don't want us in the union. It's fairly easy to see there hasn't been much support for NI being part of the UK since the Treaty - even beforehand you had the Liberals voting for Home Rule. We're part of the UK not because England wants us to stay for strategic reasons, but under sufferance. The alternative would be worse for everyone, so we stay in the UK by default. England would happily get rid of us if we voted to.

If the nukes were so strategically important you'd expect to see some degree of military infrastructure in the province unrelated to security. Before 1969, you had nothing beyond a few coastguard boats and the regimental barracks, as well as a dispersal station at Aldergrove and some radar at Eglinton. If NI was so vital to securing Faslane, you'd have expected a slightly heavier military presence.
 
Saying England didn't want Ulster isn't the whole truth or even part really true at all, there was a very sizeable section of the population including the vast majority of the Tory Party who felt a connection and loyalty to Ulster Loyalists and were very unwilling to abandon them to the tender mercies of Rome Rule as we had abandoned the Southern Unionists. Whether they were a majority depended on the time and circumstances. But if the demographics had been the other was (i.e. 40% Prod) I wouldn't have been super surprised if the Tory Party was very loathe to let Ulster go.
 
What would be interesting would be if there had been a more concentrated effort, both on the British and Irish governments parts, to encourage greater communications between the catholic and protestant communities in Northern Island and Irie, with a view to nipping the violence in the bud. A Northern Irish PM might have seen this.
 
Well Cordite man has George Brown as PM in HMS Heligoland 1945, although I didn't know he was catholic until this post.
 
Well Cordite man has George Brown as PM in HMS Heligoland 1945, although I didn't know he was catholic until this post.

He didn't become a Catholic until towards the end of his life.

A Catholic UK Prime Minister would make no difference at all and if there were signs that his/her Cathoilc faith was influencing policy towards Ulster then he/she would be discredited.
 
'Taig' is actually a term used for Catholics in Ulster/Scotland and it can be taken as more offensive than 'Fenian'! The Protestant equivalent is 'Jaffa'. BTW I am a Taig!

I've never heard it used in Scotland, to be honest. The terms Hun and Tim are those I've heard.
 
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to portray Catholics as blameless victims, but it's a fact that they suffered a fair degree of repression - gerrymandering, favouritism and workplace discrimination from their colleagues were rampant. I simply view 1969 as the spark that set off a powder keg, but that there were massive problems beforehand.


Furthermore, you did have bombings both in NI, Scotland and England on the part of the IRA prior to 1969 - the Northern Campaign and Border Campaign both had them. I disagree with the fact that it was simply Catholic indifference that led to the failure of these campaigns - the fact that Dublin interned anyone who so much as whispered a pro-IRA word helped immeasurably :p

England don't want us in the union. It's fairly easy to see there hasn't been much support for NI being part of the UK since the Treaty - even beforehand you had the Liberals voting for Home Rule. We're part of the UK not because England wants us to stay for strategic reasons, but under sufferance. The alternative would be worse for everyone, so we stay in the UK by default. England would happily get rid of us if we voted to.

If the nukes were so strategically important you'd expect to see some degree of military infrastructure in the province unrelated to security. Before 1969, you had nothing beyond a few coastguard boats and the regimental barracks, as well as a dispersal station at Aldergrove and some radar at Eglinton. If NI was so vital to securing Faslane, you'd have expected a slightly heavier military presence.

Agreed England doesn't want us. Torys pro Ulster Unionist? Don't think so. Churchill agreed to have 32 county state for RoI neutrality in WW2.

When I refered to non-bombing, I didnt mean mainland attacks by Irish groups but pointing out dispite the secetarian divide in Scotland, they're sensible enough to do that unless the odd individual stupid enough to get caught up in our politics.
Army bases in Londonderry, Omagh, Ballymena, Belfast, Hollywood, Ballykilner, RAF Ballykelly, Aldergrove etc. 2 NATO bases maned by US military personell constructed in late 60's, dismantled early 90's. Same timeframe as SSBN usage during cold war. CND activists on mainland also pro IRA during troubles. Key quotes from English PM's 'acceptible levels of violence'?? to me this means you can carryon just enough for us to justify a military presence. 'we have no stragetic interest in NI' after cold war, why? If not to protect both sides of the North Channel. all this is too much of a coincidence for me i'm afraid..
 
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