French Westafrica in WWI CP Victory

Sorry but the problem with this kind of thougt is that is like: wow now the CP had won and they will live happily ever after...unfortunaley this is a world war and is not possible, as even OTL victors demonstrated that the war produced great political and social scar and basically begin the downfall of their empire, the CP will not be different as Germany will face internal political problem as the old leaderships will be considered cause of the slaughter of entire generations of Germans, will must continue to prop up much of the new east european state, control the polish and continue to enforce limitations to the French armed forces if for some miracle is victory had permitted that and in this case even controlling the colonies.


Shaken but not broken. In interwar Britain there were a couple of Labour governments, but both were short-lived minority ones. France didn't swing left either. And Germany, of course, even after losing the war, soon turned to Hindenburg as President.

The only major victor power to have any kind of revolution was Italy, and significantly that one was from the right rather than the left. I doubt if the CPs would be much different.
 
Shaken but not broken. In interwar Britain there were a couple of Labour governments, but both were short-lived minority ones. France didn't swing left either. And Germany, of course, even after losing the war, soon turned to Hindenburg as President.

Well if you want take the Weimar Republic as a paragon of stability ok, but in all seriousness France had more goverment than post-war II Italy basically hinder all his effort; UK see the seed of the end of his empire in WWI as the enourmous debt both in money and men and the growing distance between dominion, colony and the motherland and they (France and UK) were so afraid to initiate a second conflict in Europe that basically give free rein to Hitler.
And frankly i don't say that they become communist well at least Germany, simple they become embroiled in political instability as the old way as become discredited (and in German case, with all the continuos commitment this is a very bad situation)


The only major victor power to have any kind of revolution was Italy, and significantly that one was from the right rather than the left. I doubt if the CPs would be much different.

Sorry but the war simply greatly exacerbate already existing problem, a showdown between the current system, socialist and proto-fascist was always in the program...and the socialist lose simple because the King decided to back Mussolini thinking that he can control him (where i heard this thing again?), and frankly the internal problem that Italy have are nothing comparated to the A-H one
 
So many people say that the UK wouldnt give anything of their colonies to the CPs because of the Royal Navy, but why did Germany planed Middle Afrika ? If the UK wouldnt give them anything at all. Why have such a unlikley plan as war goal then ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Mittelafrika.png/546px-Mittelafrika.png

I mean if the CP basiclly won and all of UKs allies surrenderd, what should it do, would it really continue fighting this war just because of some colonies ?
And even with the Royal Navy, a UK which is demoralized and has perhaps resource lack and financial problems, would they continue fightning this war or agree on a peace treaty and give up some colonies.
 
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So many people say that the UK wouldnt give anything of their colonies to the CPs because of the Royal Navy, but why did Germany planed Middle Afrika ? If the UK wouldnt give them anything at all. Why have such a unlikley plan as war goal then ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Mittelafrika.png/546px-Mittelafrika.png

I mean if the CP basiclly won and all of UKs allies surrenderd, what should it do, would it really continue fighting this war just because of some colonies ?
And even with the Royal Navy, a UK which is demoralized and has perhaps resource lack and financial problems, would they continue fightning this war or agree on a peace treaty and give up some colonies.

People say that because the situation is this:
Germany control the continent
UK control the sea
Germany can't enforce any kind of decision on UK unless invade the island and retake the colonies lost is basically impossible unless they invent teletransport.
The Germans (and A-H) themselfs don't know what they want so they draft a lot of plan, the fact that they were feasible or realistic was not taking in consideration.
 
Then the UK is basiclly invinicble and can do whatever it want.
I mean i do know the UK was really powerful but like i said, a UK which is alone, demoralized after the long war and has finanical issues, would the colonies be really worth the fight ?
 
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Then the UK is basiclly invinicble.

No, but his navy in WWI basically is, expecially paragonated at the force that a predominant landpower like Germany had, so we get in a mexican standoff as the British can't do nothing in Europe and Germany can't do nothing on the colonies.
Maybe using land route with the Ottoman or basically steal the French or Italian navy (but that depend much of the kind of victory and still there is the shortage of trained personell).
And talking of morale and financial issue...if Athens cry, Sparta don't laugh as even Germany had suffer incredibily and frankly can say: 'screw the colonies i have europe'
 
Can Germany take the French colonies ?
And when they would steal the French and Italian navy, they still can't win right ´?
 
Well some french colonies in Africa, perhaps also Indochina and French Guyana.
And if the CP could beat the Royal Navy with stolen French and Italian ships, would they be able to demand some british colonies ?
I heard Kaiser Karl I had intrest in colonies, maybe they can get some smaller colonies like Réunion, Polynesia or Newcaledonia.
 
Well some french colonies in Africa, perhaps also Indochina and French Guyana.

And if the CP could beat the Royal Navy with stolen French and Italian ships, would they be able to demand some british colonies ?
I heard Kaiser Karl I had intrest in colonies.

Don't count too much on this ships as there is the high probability that the crew will scuttle them so they don't come in enemy hands (if the British don't do that first)...and there is still the problem of manning that ships. With all probability the Germans will offer a white peace at the British and call if off as they now have enough to digest...and even they are not this stupid.
Honestly without a good PoD before the war (a lot before the war) the possibility that Germany (or A-H) getting some colonies, expecially British one, are very very slim.
Hell maybe if the Kaiser hit strong enough the Hasburg in their head so they make some quick and serious concession to Italy in 1915 they 'maybe' and repeat 'maybe' do this with Regia Marina on their side and the A-H capable of operating out of the adriatic they can engage the French navy and the Royal Navy on the mediterrean (and they later reinforcement) weaken them so to permit later at the German navy to be at least on par with the British
 
OK.
How would such a POD look like, or when would such a POD be ? Around 1900 or even earlier ?
 
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OK.
How would such a POD look like, or when would such a POD be ? Around 1900 or even earlier ?

I don't know, but resolving the situation with the Hungarian and so starting the necessary nation-building it's a start, so the PoD it's better a pre-1900 one.
The big problem of A-h (and the Ottoman empire) was that was a 18/19th century nations in the 20th century nations, with a leaderships who can see that the boat was slowy going down but was too afraid of change or loose something with the concession to really reform the place till was too late and nothing can save it,vhell even Italy a nation only 50 years old had more unity and national coesion.
Naturally if we resolve the A-h problems there are less reason to start a general war, as the need to subdue Serbia is a lot less.
Post-1900 is, regarding foreign matter, at least try a serious raprochement with Italy and so keep the CP united; not talking of french kissing the italians or becoming BFF but at least mantain a cordial relationships, someone pointing out that sometimes you must concede something otherwise you lost all or that the supposed heir to the throne be an admitted anti-italian who want the former hasburg italian territories back and dismember Italy, don't bode well for the alliance.
Internally get over with the Hungarians, yes it will be hard, yes it will be costly...damn maybe the empire will be lost, but using hindsight in this 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' situation, better sin of audacity and try to do something than wait for unglamorous end.
 
Then the UK is basiclly invinicble and can do whatever it want.
I mean i do know the UK was really powerful but like i said, a UK which is alone, demoralized after the long war and has finanical issues, would the colonies be really worth the fight ?


Exactly.

I think some contributors here underrate the huge amount of "emotional capital" invested in the Western front - on both sides. The warring powers have been "giving their all" at the front, and behaving as if defeat there equals ruin - that the fate of their contries is at stake there. This included Brits, despite our normally maritime way of thinking.

Given this way of thinking, losing on the WF will seem like losing the war. Any government which tries to turn round and say "Don't worry, we can still fight on at sea" is likely to be met by a lot of bereaved families asking. "In that case why did our son have to die at Ypres?" or some variation of that. The implication that their sacrifices weren't really necessary will infuriate them, and since the German enemy can no longer be attacked in any serious way, that fury can only turn against the government.

Obviously there are limits. If the Germans try to invade Britain, we will still fight. But I doubt if there'll be much will to prolong the war for the sake of some patch of African jungle that isn't even British. This goes double, of course, if the US is now leaning on us to stop being silly and make peace - as it probably will be doing.
 
Whereas the UK cannot be defeated militarily by Germany in WWI, and hence none of her colonies could be conquered, some could be gained in negotiations, say Britain gives up some minor colonies against concessions in the continental peace treaties by Germany. That's a very big if, though.

However, even if British colonies are out of the question, that does not mean that Germany would not gain any colonies, assuming they won on the continent. Most CP-victory timelines on the board have French equatorial Africa and the Belgian Congo going to Germany, forming a true Mittelafrika. That's definitely possible, giving a German victory on the continent (Britain left on its own cannot prevent this without continuing the war, which they won't if France, Russia and Italy have an armistice). After all, France would offer quite a lot to prevent annexations in Europe, and Belgium would do the same.

German colonial gains in Asia are, however, extremely unlikely IMHO. First, whereas Britain might accept Germany getting back (all/most of) her African colonies plus Belgian Congo and French Equatorial Africa, accepting a strong German presence in Asia is something different. Second, the question is how Germany should strongarm the Japanese in giving up their conquests. As a consequence, I think Asian colonies will be subject to negotiations, mainly with Britain, and in the end Germany will give up all its Asian and oceanic colonies to Australia and Japan, maybe formalized as a purchase.

To conclude, German colonial expansion by annexing Belgian and French territories in Africa is possible IMHO, given victorious CP. Getting British colonies is only possible through fair exchanges, everything east of Africa is lost.
 
I think some contributors here underrate the huge amount of "emotional capital" invested in the Western front - on both sides. The warring powers have been "giving their all" at the front, and behaving as if defeat there equals ruin - that the fate of their contries is at stake there. This included Brits, despite our normally maritime way of thinking.

Given this way of thinking, losing on the WF will seem like losing the war. Any government which tries to turn round and say "Don't worry, we can still fight on at sea" is likely to be met by a lot of bereaved families asking. "In that case why did our son have to die at Ypres?" or some variation of that. The implication that their sacrifices weren't really necessary will infuriate them, and since the German enemy can no longer be attacked in any serious way, that fury can only turn against the government.

Obviously there are limits. If the Germans try to invade Britain, we will still fight. But I doubt if there'll be much will to prolong the war for the sake of some patch of African jungle that isn't even British. This goes double, of course, if the US is now leaning on us to stop being silly and make peace - as it probably will be doing.

It's not underrating the 'emotional capital' it's simply stating the fact that Germany (who by the way is herself on the last leg) can't enforce any serious terms on the British, except saying pretty please and with all the already brewing problem on the east and on the homefront (sorry but victory will not make them disappear), they will go to get back their colonies as the best case scenario, and honestly the great parts of the Germans don't really cared for the colonies, yes great for show but not so important to continue a costly war, not when a greater prize is already conquered.
 
Germany was already considering (at the very least) an approachment to Japan and giving up any claim to their lost colonies in the Pacific at the time of the Zimmerman Telegram IIRC.

Seriously, Victory doesn't mean you have to get half the world map colored your way. A Germany that gets Brest-Litovsk recognized, a surviving Ottoman Empire on its economic sphere of influence and the whole Congo on condition of leaving Belgian and French metropoli soil is a victorious Germany. So what if they have to kiss good bye to the Pacific colonies, Namibia, Togo and possibly Tanzania (maybe even Cameroon)? They were money losers anyway.
 
It's not underrating the 'emotional capital' it's simply stating the fact that Germany (who by the way is herself on the last leg) can't enforce any serious terms on the British, except saying pretty please and with all the already brewing problem on the east and on the homefront (sorry but victory will not make them disappear), they will go to get back their colonies as the best case scenario, .

Or an equivalent.

I don't see South Africa being ready to give SWA back, and Australia and NZ will be equally reluctant to part with German New Guinea, Samoa etc. So the Belgian Congo would effectively be in lieu of the return of these. After all, given that Belgium itself is now doomed to be a German dependency, the Congo is hardly worth arguing about. Even if Germany doesn't annex it she'll still run it through her Belgian satellite regime. I doubt if we'd see a defeated Britain prolonging the conflict over it.
 
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