Who would win in an all out Jutland style battle without any other navies involved?
It’s a Jutland style battleDoes France need to defend its colonies and its Atlantic coast here?
It could go either way. A naval battle between Italy and France would probably take place in the Mediterranean where the Italians are stronger, but France would likely have more reliable air cover since Mussolini vetoed the Italian Navy’s air arm. Either way, it would probably be close.It’s a Jutland style battle
Does France need to defend its colonies and its Atlantic coast here?
No other navies are involvedProbably, because Germany is still a northern threat.
Did France have better equipment generally? I’ve read that many Italian vessels were of high quality? I’d have thought that they’d be closer to parity here. Either way, the Italian Navy is quite formidable. Especially in the Mediterranean. They had a decent cadre of officers too. They had three primary weaknesses.Probably, because Germany is still a northern threat.
It all depends on how the war is fought. Over all, I’d rank the French Navy above their Italian counterpart, but not overwhelmingly and the Italians are stronger in the Mediterranean.No other navies are involved
No other navies are involved
Did France have better equipment generally? I’ve read that many Italian vessels were of high quality? I’d have thought that they’d be closer to parity here. Either way, the Italian Navy is quite formidable. Especially in the Mediterranean. They had a decent cadre of officers too. They had three primary weaknesses.
1) Lack of fuel.
2) Their sailors were fairly well trained, but they neglected night fighting exercises and they only started fitting their ships with radar later in the war.
3) A lack of reliable air cover due to Mussolini’s veto and their inter service rivalry with the air-force.
1) From what I’ve read, Italian pilots were skilled and experts in flight maneuvers, but they seemed to be less adept tactically and they were often fighting with inferior equipment. By 1942 and 1943, they managed to produce some respectable aircraft, but due to budget constraints and a lack of resources related to the war, they were often unable to produce them in sufficient numbers to make a difference. The Moose probably should have waited until 1942 or 1943.Summary:
a. The French have better naval artillery.
b. French naval architecture was good. Better than the United States Navy of the era and that is saying a LOT.
c. It would be difficult to judge land based air. Both air forces were good. I have a high respect for the pilot cadres and ground personnel of both services. Aircraft depending on type were "questionable" by 1940 standards but in the early to mid 1930s the Italians have a slight technical edge and a HUGE leadership edge before Bennie the Moose screws everything up around 1937 with his "reorganization" and insistence on favoring his political appointees. France's air ministry is in chaos as well, (politicians both uniformed and civilian) but down at the escadrille level the AdA is first rate. When I said war-worthy aircraft BTW, that means against the 1930s USN baseline, because the American naval air service of the era we cover does not get its act together technically or operationally until 1938. That USNAS is "questionable". The French and Italians might not have the good planes past 1938, but they could RIKKO each other quite well.
d. Fast attack boat tactics and torpedo warfare? Italy hands down. They are the gold standard. They have the second best torpedoes in the world and the best tactics.
e. Naval special forces. Italy again.
Italy's problems.
Not too dissimilar from another navy I know (Cough "Guadalcanal" Cough). France's Marine National gets radar but not in time to matter at least not in this ATL.
2) Could you elaborate on Guadalcanal? Are you referring to the Americans or the Japanese here? I haven read enough about the Pacific War, but I’ve recently been getting into it. From what I’ve read, both Navies were first rate. Although the Japanese lacked a well developed convoy system and were weak in anti submarine warfare.
Honestly, I’d only say the Dunks and Riche sisters are worth anything for French BBs. The Courbets and Bretagnes are bad. They were utter garbage as built (horrible guns, terrible armor, slow/small) and the modernizations...didn’t do a whole lot to help. French shells also have some issues.
(IIRC, weak bases because of the need for poison gas shells. Yes, really, this was a thing)
Meanwhile, depending on the period, the Italian rebuilds are vastly superior if they have them. I’d call the guns better (fire control is very much better, on the equivalent rebuilds), armor is about even, and they’re far faster. Those ships would suffer against British ships mostly because the Brits has the excellent BL 15in. French...not so much.
Dunk and Riche are issues, though. I personally prefer Littorio, but that’s me.
(Relatedly: Italian guns and gunnery are quite good, if a tad too high velocity. The issue was quality control on the shells. You never knew what batch was good or not. One of the Littorio sisters (VV?) had much better performance because her crew was picky and tried to get the best shells possible)
While Italy without a doubt has better torpedo boats, how about submarines? Who has better submarines?The WWI battleship built stuff is bad. Once you look at their cruiser and destroyer forces and subs, it gets much better and that is where the MN shines.
Goes to French naval tactics. They expected to debilitate an enemy who outnumbered them.
I would rate the French armor plate as far superior and their underwater protection schemes likewise. The Pugilese shock absorber system, the Italians used was a horrendous mistake in applied hydrodynamics.
Depends. In a SAG brawl I would not want to fight the French gun platforms in a gun action.
Those were the chief complaints. Italian guns' tube liners wore quickly and introduced uncertain ballistics profiles and the shell manufacture was CRAP as to armor piercing performance, though they would fuse properly and explode when they hit.
Who has better submarines?