French/US Invasion of the british Isles ??

CalBear

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Under certain conditions, Britain could certainly be invaded. If for whatever reason, America and Britain went to war today, you'd see Americans storming the beaches of Sussex. A millennium ago, the Normans Sealioned England. If you want to bring up Sealion, keep it to Nazi Germany ca 1942.

Yes, under conditions that last existed around 1100 AD.

The Royal Navy LOVED fighting the French Navy (save one fateful day off the Virginia Capes). The French produced great ships that made wondeful additions to the Royal Navy. The French fleet made more then one British captain a rich man.

The RN wasn't going to be defeated by a swarming tactic. Only a land commander would have even considered such a thing as remotely possible. I can see the Admirality rubbing its collective hands to gether just thinking of the prized to be had from this sort of loopy strategy.

As far as the current day - Even in the ASB event of an Anglo/American War you would not see a land invasion. I know you used it to illustrate a point, but no country with multiple SSBM carrying D5 missiles has to worry about a ground invasion. Ending civilization maybe, invasion no.
 
The RN wasn't going to be defeated by a swarming tactic. Only a land commander would have even considered such a thing as remotely possible. I can see the Admirality rubbing its collective hands to gether just thinking of the prized to be had from this sort of loopy strategy.

That's what was going on in America at around the same time. US ships were more than capable of beating British ships 1 on 1, so the Brits used superior numbers. The British actually changed their strategy to only engage single American ships if the RN had a full squadron available.

Swarm tactics will work in a navy as long as the ships are comparable. If a British ship of the line is taking a broadside on either side from two French ships of the line, it's going to end up rather fucked up, even if it manages to end up winning that battle.
 

Dure

Banned
I think there is great potential in this scenario. The French will need to build up their army in Calais for several years whilst the French navy undertakes several small probing sorties against the Royal Navy. Meanwhile as the French divert British Attentions ... all those fine Irish navvies with names like O'Rourke, O'Riley, O'Bush and errrr Harrison that have emigrated to the USA are busy driving a trans-Atlantic tunnel (Hurrah!) and building great land monitors. One day in a quiet Surrey street a crack appears in the cobbled streets.
 
I think there is great potential in this scenario. The French will need to build up their army in Calais for several years whilst the French navy undertakes several small probing sorties against the Royal Navy. Meanwhile as the French divert British Attentions ... all those fine Irish navvies with names like O'Rourke, O'Riley, O'Bush and errrr Harrison that have emigrated to the USA are busy driving a trans-Atlantic tunnel (Hurrah!) and building great land monitors. One day in a quiet Surrey street a crack appears in the cobbled streets.

That's what the Nazi's didn't do! Build a chunnel to attack the UK!
 
I think there is great potential in this scenario. The French will need to build up their army in Calais for several years whilst the French navy undertakes several small probing sorties against the Royal Navy. Meanwhile as the French divert British Attentions ... all those fine Irish navvies with names like O'Rourke, O'Riley, O'Bush and errrr Harrison that have emigrated to the USA are busy driving a trans-Atlantic tunnel (Hurrah!) and building great land monitors. One day in a quiet Surrey street a crack appears in the cobbled streets.

Oh come on. Paddy O'Bush was a notorious drunk and too lazy to assist in the invasion. While I can see it of Seamus O'Rourke and Leprechaun O'Riley, O'Bush? Pure ASB.
 
The only realistic scenario I can envisage is a POD way back in 1782 at the Battle of the Saints, with the French elluding the British and uniting with the Spanish Fleet to invade Jamaica. This could lead to a more favorable peace for the allies i.e Gibraltar goes back to the Spanish and the Americans get Nova Scotia(this leads to a stronger Federalist Party and thus a stronger USN), but more importantly it could lead to a change in French naval doctrine to avoid general engagements with the Royal Navy.

If this doctrine is followed throughout 1793-1807 combined with Napoleon successfully gobbling up continental fleets you could see an invasion attempt around 1808 after Tilsit, with the US lending a hand. Whether such an invasion is successful is IMO doubtful as all these developments would just lead to the RN becoming even stronger.
 
That's what was going on in America at around the same time. US ships were more than capable of beating British ships 1 on 1, so the Brits used superior numbers. The British actually changed their strategy to only engage single American ships if the RN had a full squadron available.

Swarm tactics will work in a navy as long as the ships are comparable. If a British ship of the line is taking a broadside on either side from two French ships of the line, it's going to end up rather fucked up, even if it manages to end up winning that battle.

Solomaxwell6

You need to take account of quality as well as quantity. Two British frigates could manouver to join in attacking one of the larger American frigates because they had, generally much experience of time at sea. The French and later the Americans were increasingly blockaged in and hence lacked the experience in handling ships, let alone in large numbers. That was the only reason Nelson could use the tactics he did at Trafalgar and get a crushing victory, rather than get hammered himself.

Furthermore its realtively easy for two or 3 ships with good crews to combine against one. Getting 50-60 SOL, even with better crews than the French had historically, to operate as a coherent fleet is going to be difficult and forcing a decisive victory with such a force against a capable enemy is going to be very difficult. [Don't forget that despite what Napoleon thought he needed to win control of the Channel for much more than a day. Not only does he have to nurse his primative invasion force across, or somehow build a decent one but he needs to supply the army during the following campaign in Britain. Otherwise the French empire could come to a much earlier and less bloody end.

Steve
 

CalBear

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That's what was going on in America at around the same time. US ships were more than capable of beating British ships 1 on 1, so the Brits used superior numbers. The British actually changed their strategy to only engage single American ships if the RN had a full squadron available.

Swarm tactics will work in a navy as long as the ships are comparable. If a British ship of the line is taking a broadside on either side from two French ships of the line, it's going to end up rather fucked up, even if it manages to end up winning that battle.

Not quite correct. The RN, for very good reason, considered the American 44s to be of the same quality as razzered 74s thanks to their remarkably robust hulls and the habit of U.S. captains to carry up to 10 guns over the "rated" value and their issues to frigate captains reflected the same orders that existed for RN frigates encountering an enemy 74. This doesn't take anything away from the brilliant handling of the Constitution and her sisters, if anything it illustrates their quality since RN commanders thought nothing of taking on much larger French or Spanish vessels (and regularry defeated their much larger opponents).

RN ships-of-the-line found themselves outnumbers on more than one occasion, with Trafalgar being probably the most famous example where the RN was outnumber 33 to 27, including a 3-4 disadvantage in 1st Rate of 3-4 (and 3 of the 4 Spanish 1st rates outgunned the largest RN ship, in ome case by 36 guns) with total guns being 2148 RN vs. 2568 for their opponents. The result of that action? The RN captured 22 ships from the combined French-Spanish fleet (although a number of the prizes later sank or were scuttled and two recaptured after being separated from the main RN force in storms) while suffering no lost ships of their own. Of the eleven ships that escaped the RN only FIVE were seaworthy the following day.

If you were facing the RN with a 3-2 advantage, you better whistle up some help.
 

Dure

Banned
I think Cyrano de Bergerac had a way that this could be made to work. Each French Infantryman sits on a small plank and is carried across the Channel by 20 trained geese tied above the plank by string.

Getting the USA involved is a little bit harder. I suspect however that a national leprachuan hunt culminating in the confiscation and appropriation of their seven league boots by the army should work. Alternatively for those that require greater realism, in OTL the US Navy has trained dolphins but it is a long swim.
 
Not quite correct. The RN, for very good reason, considered the American 44s to be of the same quality as razzered 74s thanks to their remarkably robust hulls and the habit of U.S. captains to carry up to 10 guns over the "rated" value and their issues to frigate captains reflected the same orders that existed for RN frigates encountering an enemy 74. This doesn't take anything away from the brilliant handling of the Constitution and her sisters, if anything it illustrates their quality since RN commanders thought nothing of taking on much larger French or Spanish vessels (and regularry defeated their much larger opponents).

RN ships-of-the-line found themselves outnumbers on more than one occasion, with Trafalgar being probably the most famous example where the RN was outnumber 33 to 27, including a 3-4 disadvantage in 1st Rate of 3-4 (and 3 of the 4 Spanish 1st rates outgunned the largest RN ship, in ome case by 36 guns) with total guns being 2148 RN vs. 2568 for their opponents. The result of that action? The RN captured 22 ships from the combined French-Spanish fleet (although a number of the prizes later sank or were scuttled and two recaptured after being separated from the main RN force in storms) while suffering no lost ships of their own. Of the eleven ships that escaped the RN only FIVE were seaworthy the following day.

If you were facing the RN with a 3-2 advantage, you better whistle up some help.

I concede the point. I admitted from the start that the British leadership would need to have a big case of the stupid, but you're right. It goes even further than that.
 
No the Royal Navy conrolled the seas and the French fleet which had the support of Spain at Trafalgar not longer had the support of Spain and had been destroyed at Trafalgar. Napoleon wouldn't have been able to secure at beachhead. It would be a stalemate
 
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