French tanks in Commonwealth units if France survives 1940?

[Bougnas]

Hi,

This is something that I've seen mentionned in some French armor magazines: due to the fact that French tank production was exceeding demand by mid-1940 and would have been able to equip all French forces as required, it is said that some British units and other allies would have been given French tanks. Namely, up to 9 Char B1s per month, as well as Hotchkiss H39s.


This is not exactly impossible given that British production wouldn't have been sufficient even in 1941, but did such plans actually exist?

 

[Driftless]

There are several wildcards in there, I think. The first wildcard: does France surviving the initial disaster imply there was no Dunkirk evacuation where most equipment gets left behind. If more British equipment (vehicles and guns) survives that initial fray, that change would have a later impact on demand. Of course, even surviving equipment would be pretty worn by the end of 1940. The second wildcard I can think of is the change in the North African situation. The Italians are really in trouble with the French to the West and the British to the East. Even if everyone sits on their hands, the demand for equipment changes, while they regroup and refit. If the British and/or the French go on the offensive, then every vehicle (and drop of fuel) is needed. Thirdly, does the change in demand for vehicles and increase supply mean that more equipment can go to the Far East? Malaya, and maybe even the DEI.

 

[fastmongrel]

Would the British accept a one man turret seeing as virtually every other British tank had a 3 man turret with the exception of some marks of Valentine and Crusader.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Would the British accept a one man turret seeing as virtually every other British tank had a 3 man turret with the exception of some marks of Valentine and Crusader.

Not only no, but hell no. The otherwise excellent Valentine was initially rejected because it had a two man turret, there's no way the British Army will accept a one man turret. The A11 was the exception that proved the rule built down to a price and done away with as soon as possible.

 

[Derwit]

Not only no, but hell no. The otherwise excellent Valentine was initially rejected because it had a two man turret, there's no way the British Army will accept a one man turret. The A11 was the exception that proved the rule built down to a price and done away with as soon as possible.

I agree that the British wouldn't touch a one man turret for th e war in Europe. However they might be willing to take some of the French to build up forces in non European backwaters in 1940 at least) like the middle east and far east. French tanks could also be sent to the dominions and India for training, boosting local moral and freeing up British production for the war with Germany.

 

[Driftless]

Even if they don't choose the single man turrets for tanks, could you convert the chassis for other use? Prime movers/Aritillery tractors?

(Or use them in Britain, for a little Allied solidarity)

 

[Bougnas]

So I've dug up a bit to find concrete sources about these plans, so far I've only found wiki-type articles where the following is mentionned:

"It was decided to concentrate most Allied production capacity for light tanks into the manufacture of a single type, and the Hotchkiss tank was chosen as it had the necessary mobility to be of use in the many armoured divisions the Entente planned to raise for the expected decisive summer offensive of 1941. To this end British and Portuguese heavy industry had to assist in producing the cast armour sections. It was hoped to increase production to 300 a month in October 1940, and even 500 a month from March 1941, the sections of 75 of which to be provided by Britain in exchange for a monthly delivery of nine Char B1's."

 

[Driftless]

Even if the French are building the same Hotchkiss H-3x tank chassis into early 1941, wouldn't they need to up-gun? The Puteaux SA 18 3.7cm was already outclassed before the shooting started. If they up-gun, does that require a bigger turret?

 

[Bad@logic]

Even if the French are building the same Hotchkiss H-3x tank chassis into early 1941, wouldn't they need to up-gun? The Puteaux SA 18 3.7cm was already outclassed before the shooting started. If they up-gun, does that require a bigger turret?

The H35 had already been upgunned with the 37mm SA 38 in the H39, with production switching over to the new variant in 1940.

 

[groundhogday666]

By 1939-40 France was moving away from the one-man turret siliness. For example, the B1ter and following tanks would have included that landmark and all important change. Same for the SOMUA S-40 (from memory, tanks are not my cup of tea, since they don't fly).
Alas, like too many things in late-30's France, it took an average two to three years of bureaucratic infighting and industrial failures for the change to actually happen. Count backwards to early 1939 late 1938 to see changes happening late 1940 / early 1941. that's why the B1bis that fought in May 1940 still had no radios or too few, and one-man stupid turrets... the mistake would have been corrected (at best) with the tanks rolling out of production lines in the summer and fall 1940 - in the best case, of course. Don't forget the elephant in the room was Gamelin complacency and criminal stupidity, plus his fried brains.

 

[Driftless]

If France is able to continue tank (and other military productions), that would reduce some of the need for working around US neutrality laws and the long term costlier parts of Lend-Lease

 

[Bougnas]

Thanks to the impressive job of French historians over at the ATF 40 forum (such as Stéphane Ferrard, may he rest in peace), we actually have some idea of Franco-British weapon trade agreements. It turns out that the truth is more complicated than the claims I've seen before.

Long story short, both France and the UK lacked equipment in specific areas and couldn't make up for it with their own production yet, hence the exchange agreements. This involved the following actions planned from June/July on:

- since the British were further ahead in production capacity of the 40mm Bofors (that Poland was to produce for the Entente before it fell...), France ordered guns and ammunition from the British until their factory was set up. The UK also sent 20 3.7" AA guns and was setting up radars in the metropole to reinforce the French Territorial Air Defense as French air defense plans were not yet picking up steam.

- Hotchkiss (whose CEO was a British) subcontracted the production of 2000 25mm AT guns to BSA, to be delivered starting from April 1941. The French themselves would supply the British with some 25mm guns from June-July 1940. In exchange the British would send Boys AT rifles which would improve the AT power of French infantry until HEAT rifle grenades are available in sufficient numbers.

- France subcontracted an ergonomic study of the Char B1 to the British, either to improve French B1s or give some data for the British in the development of the Churchill.
- France traded data on the B1 for data on the British Cruiser tanks, which is what kickstarted the AMX 40.

- the British would also have sent Guy Armored Cars and Scout Cars, and ASDICs for the MN.

- France was to buy 7.92mm Mausers in Latin America for the British to equip the Egyptians.

Let's finally go on the H39 deal: France and the UK selected this as the main Entente light tank to produce (some 4000 required), and to increase production rates as required to do this, British companies were tasked to manufacture H39 castings. Note that this doesn't mean that the UK wanted H39s for themselves. Rather, it seems that they were mainly intended for the French, possibly the Free Poles in France (there was a whole army being set up, but mostly with Renault R40s), and interestingly enough, still neutral Allies like Greece, Yugoslavia, Romania and...Turkey.

Now delivering tanks to neutral but friendly countries in wartime sounds insane, but it seems that the intended production rates would have far exceeded French demand anyway. I think that the actual intent was two-fold: equip allies so that they can eventually declare war on the Reich and possibly liberate German-occupied Poland and Czechia (the case of Slovakia would have been spicy...) before Stalin tries anything funny; strengthen their defenses to contain the Italians who were not friendly, and the Soviets who were still part of the M-R Pact and therefore were highly suspicious.

Finally, it seems there actually was an agreement to send 12 H39 tanks to the British for training, followed by 100. Bear in mind, the British Army indeed did not want it because of the one-man turret (though they liked some of its features, probably the armor, casting procedures and possibly reliability though I've no data on that matter). HOWEVER, it seems that the British Government was willing to accept them for political purposes, that is, equip BEF reinforcements more quickly so they can be sent to the continent. Nothing to do with quality, just the fact that something was better than nothing. But since France couldn't deliver them until September 1940, the British cancelled this order.

The 9 B1 Bis/month for the Brits are another matter. Considering that the British had nothing like this in 1940, it's possible that this was meant to be a stopgap until the Churchill was ready.


Apparently France would have possibly supplied the British with the following equipment, possibly to speed up BEF reinforcement:

7.5mm FM 24/29
81mm mortars
47mm SA 37 AT guns
modernised 75 mm Mle 97 field guns
UE 37 Renault carriers

There were standardisation plans going on. Anyway, you see that it's quite a complex deal.

 

[Bougnas]

Even if the French are building the same Hotchkiss H-3x tank chassis into early 1941, wouldn't they need to up-gun? The Puteaux SA 18 3.7cm was already outclassed before the shooting started. If they up-gun, does that require a bigger turret?

The H35 had already been upgunned with the 37mm SA 38 in the H39, with production switching over to the new variant in 1940.

There was also enough excess production to reequip all short gun light tanks with the SA38 by December 1940.

By 1939-40 France was moving away from the one-man turret siliness. For example, the B1ter and following tanks would have included that landmark and all important change. Same for the SOMUA S-40 (from memory, tanks are not my cup of tea, since they don't fly).
Alas, like too many things in late-30's France, it took an average two to three years of bureaucratic infighting and industrial failures for the change to actually happen. Count backwards to early 1939 late 1938 to see changes happening late 1940 / early 1941. that's why the B1bis that fought in May 1940 still had no radios or too few, and one-man stupid turrets... the mistake would have been corrected (at best) with the tanks rolling out of production lines in the summer and fall 1940 - in the best case, of course. Don't forget the elephant in the room was Gamelin complacency and criminal stupidity, plus his fried brains.

B1 Ter would have used a one-man turret with a bigger turret ring, but IIRC was not quite there for two men. S40 would have stayed one-man for some time but would have got either a two-man or three-man turret. The Infantry's successor to the light tanks and the D2 (Char d'Accompagnement de 20t) would probably have got at least a two-man turret as this was becoming the minimum requirement by mid -1940.
The B1 Bis actually all had radios but those used morse. The first voice radio was not well-liked, but by 1940 B1s would have started getting modern ones.