French submarines in the Kriegsmarine

The Sucrof is the most famous of those seized. As far as I know it was the only Brit captured sub that achieved operational status with the Brits or Free French. It was used to deliver some soldiers to seize a pair of tiny French island off Newfoundland & then was dispatched to the S Pacific, to the French colonies there, after a extensive refit in a US naval yard. So after its capture in June 1940, with a trained/experienced French crew, it managed maybe two combat missions, a Atlantic transit, and a transit to its wreck in the Carribean. That suggsts something of the difficulty in using such a vessel without its support structure ashore.
 
The Sucrof is the most famous of those seized. As far as I know it was the only Brit captured sub that achieved operational status with the Brits or Free French. It was used to deliver some soldiers to seize a pair of tiny French island off Newfoundland & then was dispatched to the S Pacific, to the French colonies there, after a extensive refit in a US naval yard. So after its capture in June 1940, with a trained/experienced French crew, it managed maybe two combat missions, a Atlantic transit, and a transit to its wreck in the Carribean. That suggsts something of the difficulty in using such a vessel without its support structure ashore.

A few others did too, Rubis did a nice job as a mine laying sub:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Rubis_(1931)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sure - the French forces in the Atlantic were fairly minimal

Only six French built subs, including the ill fated Surcouf saw service with the Free French Navy.

Sure - the French forces in the Atlantic were fairly minimal by the time France fell in the summer of 1940.

Still an interesting case study; the British/Free French got (at least according to a quick web search) all six into operational service by 1941; the Germans got one of the three they captured, as far as I can tell. The Italians may or may not have gotten any of the Med boats operational, and the Germans probably not, even after the Italian surrender.

Best,
 
Sure - the French forces in the Atlantic were fairly minimal by the time France fell in the summer of 1940.

Still an interesting case study; the British/Free French got (at least according to a quick web search) all six into operational service by 1941; the Germans got one of the three they captured, as far as I can tell. The Italians may or may not have gotten any of the Med boats operational, and the Germans probably not, even after the Italian surrender.

Best,

Based on a little more research, of the six, one of them (IRIS) was in fact interned in Spain. NARVAL was mined off Tunisia in December 1940 and lost with all hands. SURCOUF had kind of an odd and busy career that involved very little combat. Of the other three (RUBIS, JUNON, MINERVE), RUBIS had the most successful career - as a mine layer. JUNON and MINERVE saw some action but not much success.

I don't know enough about the technical capabilities of the boats and if they could handle British torpedoes or why they all seemed to spend a lot of time in refit but just a quick look at their track records suggests that bringing these boats up to operational standards and maintaining them at operational standards may have been more trouble than it was worth.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yep; it was not simple, for the British, even with all

Based on a little more research, of the six, one of them (IRIS) was in fact interned in Spain. NARVAL was mined off Tunisia in December 1940 and lost with all hands. SURCOUF had kind of an odd and busy career that involved very little combat. Of the other three (RUBIS, JUNON, MINERVE), RUBIS had the most successful career - as a mine layer. JUNON and MINERVE saw some action but not much success.

I don't know enough about the technical capabilities of the boats and if they could handle British torpedoes or why they all seemed to spend a lot of time in refit but just a quick look at their track records suggests that bringing these boats up to operational standards and maintaining them at operational standards may have been more trouble than it was worth.

Yep; it was not simple, for the British, even with all their shipbuilding resources, to keep the French-built ships going in 1940-41; there's a reason most of the ships that came over to the Allies, in 1940 or 1942, ended up going through pretty substantial refits in the US in 1943.

Even more unlikely the Germans or Italians could have done much with these vessels.

Best,
 
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Yep; it was not simple, for the British, even with all their shipbuilding resources, to keep the French-built ships going in 1940-41; there's a reason most of the ships that came over to the Allies, in 1940 or 1942, ended up going through pretty substantial refits in the US in 1943.

Even more unlikely the Germans or Italians could have done much with these vessels.

French ships, if not the lowest, close to the lowest priority for British? as well as later for the Germans and Italians.

early on the submarines would have been in good condition but under control (or custody) of Vichy regime. if they had gone to KM then they would have also had whatever parts and machinery available as well some number of subs under construction that presumably could have been cannibalized (along with completed ones that could be sacrificed.)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Probably; some of the exile navies (Poles, for example)

French ships, if not the lowest, close to the lowest priority for British? as well as later for the Germans and Italians.

early on the submarines would have been in good condition but under control (or custody) of Vichy regime. if they had gone to KM then they would have also had whatever parts and machinery available as well some number of subs under construction that presumably could have been cannibalized (along with completed ones that could be sacrificed.)

Probably; some of the exile navies (Poles and Greeks, for example) actually had British-built ships, while others (the Dutch) had systems that were more common to British vessels. The French ships (and the Italian-built Greek ones, for example) tended to have to be cannibalized to keep running...

The problem with the Axis simply taking over the MN in 1940 is that even Petain realized the navy was about the only trump card France had left, and the goal was to keep it as a fleet in being and under French control in return for various concessions; the alternative is what happened in 1942, when the vast majority of the fleet was scuttled rather than be handed over to the Axis after TORCH.

The other problem, of course, is scaring up crews; its not like the KM or even the RM was the priority for either Axis power, compared to their armies and air forces.

Best,
 
The problem with the Axis simply taking over the MN in 1940 is that even Petain realized the navy was about the only trump card France had left, and the goal was to keep it as a fleet in being and under French control in return for various concessions; the alternative is what happened in 1942, when the vast majority of the fleet was scuttled rather than be handed over to the Axis after TORCH.

The other problem, of course, is scaring up crews; its not like the KM or even the RM was the priority for either Axis power, compared to their armies and air forces.

agree 100% the fleet was never going to be handed over but my point was mirroring the Treaty of Versailles the Axis was never going to allow French to keep a submarine force under final peace treaty, THAT would be the one element ceded over.

also it seems the only plausible part of French fleet the Germans would be able to crew.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Maybe; takes a different surrender, though, and the

agree 100% the fleet was never going to be handed over but my point was mirroring the Treaty of Versailles the Axis was never going to allow French to keep a submarine force under final peace treaty, THAT would be the one element ceded over.

also it seems the only plausible part of French fleet the Germans would be able to crew.

Maybe; takes a different surrender, though, and the situation was that the majority of the French submarine force that "could" have been surrendered in 1940 was largely in the Med, which was not the easiest place to get a submarine "out" of...

IIRC, none of the Germans boats that infiltrated into the Med from the Atlantic ever got out again.

Best,
 
Maybe; takes a different surrender, though, and the situation was that the majority of the French submarine force that "could" have been surrendered in 1940 was largely in the Med, which was not the easiest place to get a submarine "out" of...

IIRC, none of the Germans boats that infiltrated into the Med from the Atlantic ever got out again.

that was part of my point, the French submarines were already IN the Med, now how useful would be debatable but at least they would not have to pass gauntlet at Gibraltar.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Okay, but the question then is are second-hand French

that was part of my point, the French submarines were already IN the Med, now how useful would be debatable but at least they would not have to pass gauntlet at Gibraltar.

Okay, but the question then is are second-hand French submarines with a marginal supply chain and manned by scratch German/Italian crews going to do all that much in a theater where a) the Italians and Germans were (generally) stymied when trying to deny sea control to the British and b) the British were able to avoid when necessary by sending shipping via the Cape?

As it was the Italians had a large submarine force and the British were still able to reinforce and resupply Malta and run operations like the TIGER convoy all the way to Alexandria; so its unclear a few "more" submarines would make a difference.

If they can get the French crews, that's a different story, but that seems pretty unlikely.

Best,
 
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