French-Spanish Union?

Anaxagoras

Banned
I had a Franco-Spanish union as part of my "God is a Frenchman" TL. Must resurrect that one at some point.
 
Mmmm... It's possible, yes, but at that point basically every other power in Europe was opposed to the very concept.

Yes, but it's possible for France to have won that war. Say there's no Protestant wind, and William doesn't conquer (I mean, umm, liberate with an army) England.
 

Susano

Banned
Yes, but it's possible for France to have won that war. Say there's no Protestant wind, and William doesn't conquer (I mean, umm, liberate with an army) England.

Wrong war. That was the War of the Grand Alliance. I mean, I can see why one can get confused, its basically the same war with the same sides and just three years pause inbetween, but still ;)

Nobody wanted France, which already was the superhypoerpower of Europe at this time to also add Spain toits dominions. Even not a Stuart monarch.
 
Wrong war. That was the War of the Grand Alliance. I mean, I can see why one can get confused, its basically the same war with the same sides and just three years pause inbetween, but still ;)

Nobody wanted France, which already was the superhypoerpower of Europe at this time to also add Spain toits dominions. Even not a Stuart monarch.

no, I think it stands. Without Britain, the Franco-Spanish force might win; and the Stuarts are dependent on French subsidies.
 

Susano

Banned
no, I think it stands. Without Britain, the Franco-Spanish force might win; and the Stuarts are dependent on French subsidies.

Well, okay. Say we have no William of Orange. Then James II/VI will still be deposed, though, just without the help of an outside army. And whoever is new monarch will not want France to gain Spain.
 
Well, okay. Say we have no William of Orange. Then James II/VI will still be deposed, though, just without the help of an outside army. And whoever is new monarch will not want France to gain Spain.


That's it exactly. Even if the French somehow pull 1701-1714 out of the fire, all they've done is turn the next 50 years into an everybody-against-France Napoleonic-wars-style hatefest. Except France doesn't have Boney, or the levee en masse, or even an ideology with which to grab collaborators, so it'll be even more of a curbstomp than 1814.
 
That's it exactly. Even if the French somehow pull 1701-1714 out of the fire, all they've done is turn the next 50 years into an everybody-against-France Napoleonic-wars-style hatefest. Except France doesn't have Boney, or the levee en masse, or even an ideology with which to grab collaborators, so it'll be even more of a curbstomp than 1814.


OTOH, the UK isn't as strong relative to France as it would be a century later, nor is Russia. Nor is France expending huge amounts of resources in holding down Spain, assuming of course the Spanish accept a French monarch. (They accepted one raised in the Low Countries in the 16th century, after all).

And major reasons why there _was_ an everybody-against-France-hatefest don't exist: super-France isn't an ideological threat to East-central European Anciene Regimes like revolutionary France - indeed, it's the pillar of absolute monarchy. I see the UK and the Austrians having rather more trouble than OTLs anti-Napoleonic alliance creating a Europe-wide coalition to reverse the events of 1701-1714 by force, as long as the Bourbons don't do something really stupid like trying to make themselves Holy Romans Emperors.

(Of course, these _are_ the Bourbons we are talking about.)

Bruce
 
OTOH, the UK isn't as strong relative to France as it would be a century later, nor is Russia. Nor is France expending huge amounts of resources in holding down Spain, assuming of course the Spanish accept a French monarch. (They accepted one raised in the Low Countries in the 16th century, after all).

And major reasons why there _was_ an everybody-against-France-hatefest don't exist: super-France isn't an ideological threat to East-central European Anciene Regimes like revolutionary France - indeed, it's the pillar of absolute monarchy. I see the UK and the Austrians having rather more trouble than OTLs anti-Napoleonic alliance creating a Europe-wide coalition to reverse the events of 1701-1714 by force, as long as the Bourbons don't do something really stupid like trying to make themselves Holy Romans Emperors.

(Of course, these _are_ the Bourbons we are talking about.)

Bruce

The problem is all balance of power. Francispania is the most powerful state on the planet, bar none. The Dutch will hate it because it's mere existence is a standing threat to their independance. The Austrians will hate it because it'll be a threat to their dominance over Germany. The Germans'll hate it because, if there's one thing worse than being dominated by the Austrians, it's being conquered and ruled direct from Versailles. Ditto for the Italians. The Brits are going to hate and fear this massive new colonial empire the French have acquired.

You don't need an ideological difference to fear someone - just a threat.
 
The problem is all balance of power. Francispania is the most powerful state on the planet, bar none. The Dutch will hate it because it's mere existence is a standing threat to their independance. The Austrians will hate it because it'll be a threat to their dominance over Germany. The Germans'll hate it because, if there's one thing worse than being dominated by the Austrians, it's being conquered and ruled direct from Versailles. Ditto for the Italians. The Brits are going to hate and fear this massive new colonial empire the French have acquired.

You don't need an ideological difference to fear someone - just a threat.

Fear is a great motivator. But it is a question of what there is to be afraid of. remember, during the late 1500s and early 1600s, the Hapsburgs ruled directly or indirectly most of Europe, and just about all of the colonies. Many nations, particularly the protestant ones, attempted to fight back. But there was never any grand coalition against them for any signifigant period. Or during the 1520s, when the Ottomans pushed as far as Vienna by the end of the decade. The German nobles, faced with a threat more dangerous then any to them since the Mongols three centuries before, do nothing. On the other had, we see at the end of the 18th century, a major European nation, once a pillar of monarchism (that's where the term ancien regime comes from) become consumed in revolution. We see the entire social system which has stood in some form or other for decades be completly destroyed. Then this relative nobody shows up in their armies. He marches across Europe, and manages to throw down the massed forces of the Austrians, Prussians, and Russians, not to mention others which contribute to their coalition. He is not defeated in battle until 1809, and that is Aspern-Essling. He does not truly start to collapse until the Penninsular Campaign and the Invasion of Russia, both of which tie involve 5-600,000 French and allied troops (for the record, Marlborough's army of 100,000 at Malpacquet was unprecedented in European history and effectivly unmanagable). He posed a threat to the institutions in place, and had bloodied to many noses to go unchecked.

This Bourbon franco-spanish union threatens the balance of power, but it htreatens only to realign it. And there will be powers which will see advantage in allying with it, or which will not care to join the alliance. Russia, Sweden, Prussia, and others all have potential gains they can make wit French aid. Sweden is trying to hold onto it's empire, Russia and Prussia are on the rise. All are far enough away that they will not immediately feel the blow of the French juggernaut, should it turn on them. And if they chose not to, they are far enough away that they cannot intervene against france (no russians crossing Germany to invade france, for instance). Other German or italian states may wish to throw off the domination of the Hapsburgs. And finally, all other things being equal, this alliance has the force to stand off much of Europe, in much the same way that the French did in OTL, albiet with mixed success.
 
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