French Princes of the Blood

I have been looking into the French Princes of the Blood in the mid-sixteenth century and was wondering if anyone had a clear answer here.

IOTL the First princes of the blood were as follows:

First Princes of the Blood
Valois House of Orléans

  1. 1465–1498 : Louis II, Duke of Orléans (1462–1515);
  2. 1498–1515 : François, Count of Angoulême (1494–1547)
House of Valois-Alençon
  1. 1515–1525 : Charles IV, Duke of Alençon (1489–1525);
House of Bourbon-Montpensier
  1. 1525–1527 : Charles III, Duke of Bourbon (1490–1527) would have been the first prince had he not been banned from the position for treason;
House of Bourbon-Vendôme
  1. 1527–1537 : Charles IV de Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme (1489–1537);
  2. 1537–1562 : Antoine de Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme, later King of Navarre (1518–1562).
  3. 1562–1589 : Henri III, King of Navarre (1553–1610);

I was wondering what familial line would be next in line as Princes of the Blood after the Bourbon family (both Vendôme and Montpensier branches), if you completely ignore that branch of the family. So not Condé or the like.

From what I have been able to suss out it would lead all the way back to Robert of Burgundy and the Afonsine line of the Portuguese house of Burgundy, with a departure from the Portuguese dynastic line in the succession crisis of the 1380s when the Avis came to power, though this really depends on whether you hold up Pedro I's marriage to Ines de Castro as backward legitimizing.

However, if you don't go that route or view them as illegitimate, who would have followed the Bourbon in the succession? I am having a hard time following the Portuguese lines of succession, but I am pretty sure the candidate would have been somewhere in there. I haven't been able to identify who else would have followed if not the Afonsines.
 
The Bourbons-Busset claimed they were born of a legitimate marriage so theoretically they should've followed the Constable as duke of Bourbon. We now know that their claim was most likely bogus/forgery, but back then it was the "bishop of Liège married Katharina of Guelders my grandpa told me so". Never mind the question of whether such a marriage was canonically valid...its a real mess.

But...skipping over the Bourbons, IIRC the next line before you get to Portugal is the Courtenays. However, whether they're in the succession or not is open to question for much the same reason as the Bussets if I'm not mistaken.

Then the duc de Longueville (likewise of a bastard line) was acknowldedged as first prince du sang with succession rights under Charles IX. Which further makes the matter as clear as mud...
 
There were then still descendants on the Capetian legitimate line from king Louis VI : branches of the house of Dreux (extincted in the mid 16th century) and of the house of Courtenay (extincted in the mid 18th century).

By all standards, the Aviz were as illegitimate/bastard as the Trastamara or the many illegitimate branches of the Valois (such as the Orleans-Longueville) and Bourbons (Vendome, Maine, Toulouse-Penthievre).
 
As Jonas wrote, there are no uncontested princes junior to the Bourbon after the death of the Duke of Alençon (1525). The Courtenay and the Dreux were legitimate male-line Capetians (descent from Louis VI), but they were low-level noblemen with very few influence and actual power. As far as I know the Courtenay never claimed their title until the late 17th c. and the Dreux went extinct in 1590. The only possible Portuguese candidates were the Eça, descendants from Peter the Cruel's legitimized son, but they were also low-level noblemen and their legitimacy was dubious at best.

The Bourbon-Busset, as other bastards Bourbon branches (Lavedan, Malause), were never recognized or either acknowledged as dynasts. They did not put forward their "claims" after many many years and never officially (the Courtenay did, and lost). The Busset were middle-level nobility, with good alliances and reasonable influence, but followers not leaders.

The Longueville were the best candidates, as they were as powerful as "true" princes and with enough relations to tip the balance in their favour, in spite of their uncontested illegitimate origin. Hence their OTL recognition by Charles IX, never accepted by the Parliament.
 
The Bourbons-Busset claimed they were born of a legitimate marriage so theoretically they should've followed the Constable as duke of Bourbon. We now know that their claim was most likely bogus/forgery, but back then it was the "bishop of Liège married Katharina of Guelders my grandpa told me so". Never mind the question of whether such a marriage was canonically valid...its a real mess.

But...skipping over the Bourbons, IIRC the next line before you get to Portugal is the Courtenays. However, whether they're in the succession or not is open to question for much the same reason as the Bussets if I'm not mistaken.

Then the duc de Longueville (likewise of a bastard line) was acknowldedged as first prince du sang with succession rights under Charles IX. Which further makes the matter as clear as mud...

The Bourbon-Bussets were not considered a legitimate line outside the family itself, while the Duc de Longueville were also an illegitimate line. Neither of them, without significant shenanigans, could be considered the next rightful princes of the blood.

I guess you are right about the Courtenay-Champignelles being next in line. I overlooked the junior line of the family. Thanks :)

There were then still descendants on the Capetian legitimate line from king Louis VI : branches of the house of Dreux (extincted in the mid 16th century) and of the house of Courtenay (extincted in the mid 18th century).

By all standards, the Aviz were as illegitimate/bastard as the Trastamara or the many illegitimate branches of the Valois (such as the Orleans-Longueville) and Bourbons (Vendome, Maine, Toulouse-Penthievre).

I am not talking about the Aviz, but rather the elder group of semi-bastards - John, the Lord of Porto de Mós, Seia and Montelongo and Denis, Lord of Villar-Dompardo, Cifuentes, Escalona and Alvar de Tormes who were both born before Pedro's marriage to Ines de Castro, and their descendants. Though I guess they would be considered illegitimate as well in this context.

So Who comes after the Courtenay? Are there any legitimate branches of the Afonsines left by mid-16th century?
 
The Bourbon-Bussets were not considered a legitimate line outside the family itself, while the Duc de Longueville were also an illegitimate line. Neither of them, without significant shenanigans, could be considered the next rightful princes of the blood.

I guess you are right about the Courtenay-Champignelles being next in line. I overlooked the junior line of the family. Thanks :)



I am not talking about the Aviz, but rather the elder group of semi-bastards - John, the Lord of Porto de Mós, Seia and Montelongo and Denis, Lord of Villar-Dompardo, Cifuentes, Escalona and Alvar de Tormes who were both born before Pedro's marriage to Ines de Castro, and their descendants. Though I guess they would be considered illegitimate as well in this context.

So Who comes after the Courtenay? Are there any legitimate branches of the Afonsines left by mid-16th century?

None left after the Courtenays regarding the Salic Law and considering the demand for an unbroken line of legitimate births.

If the legitimate male Capetians went extinct and there is no obvious heir by the Salic Law, then the French high nobility will choose its new king, like in 1328 and devise a new succession law that completes the Salic Law.
 
None left after the Courtenays regarding the Salic Law and considering the demand for an unbroken line of legitimate births.

If the legitimate male Capetians went extinct and there is no obvious heir by the Salic Law, then the French high nobility will choose its new king, like in 1328 and devise a new succession law that completes the Salic Law.

Oh, that would be really interesting to play around with. An election set in the midst of the Wars of Religion would be a recipe for absolute disaster.
 
None left after the Courtenays regarding the Salic Law and considering the demand for an unbroken line of legitimate births.

If the legitimate male Capetians went extinct and there is no obvious heir by the Salic Law, then the French high nobility will choose its new king, like in 1328 and devise a new succession law that completes the Salic Law.

None recognized the Courtenays as potential heirs at the time. If the Bourbon would have been extinct, the competition would have been between the Longueville and female-line pretenders (the Infanta). The french legists had always claimed the perpetual an immutable character of the succession rules because they have never been confronted to any real succession issues since the 14th c. That certainly does not mean the "rules" would have put a nobody whose father had been a glorified servant at court before the half-brother of a queen.
 
Thé Courtenays failed to be recognized as princes of the blood under the Bourbon kings, although they unquestionably were.

The problem is that they had been impoverished and quite isolated for centuries and so lacked political weight and support.

But what is sure is that the French nobility would opt for a french new king, not a foreigner, and especially not a spanish Habsburg even though he is the son of a french Capetian Valois royal princess. This matter had been settled once and for all in 1328. The only way to have the french overcome this principle would be for a second son of the Spanish Habsburg king and of a french Valois royal princess to bring with him the spanish Netherlands in the French royal estate or the same pattern with the duke of Piedmont-Savoy.

When I mentioned the terms choose/elect, I should have precised that it is much more a choice than a formal election. Negotiations and discussions would be informal so the process can end with a formal consensus where everyone would be able to claim choosing and supporting the new dynast.
 
But what is sure is that the French nobility would opt for a french new king, not a foreigner, and especially not a spanish Habsburg even though he is the son of a french Capetian Valois royal princess. This matter had been settled once and for all in 1328. The only way to have the french overcome this principle would be for a second son of the Spanish Habsburg king and of a french Valois royal princess to bring with him the spanish Netherlands in the French royal estate or the same pattern with the duke of Piedmont-Savoy.

When I mentioned the terms choose/elect, I should have precised that it is much more a choice than a formal election. Negotiations and discussions would be informal so the process can end with a formal consensus where everyone would be able to claim choosing and supporting the new dynast.

The duke/prince of Lorraine (Henri II) was considered OTL, ahead of any of Élisabeth de Valois' girls IIRC, merely because he was technically French. IDK if there was any support for this idea outside of the Guise party though.
 
My guess is if the legitimate male Capetians go completely extinct in the mid 16th century, the Estates-General will choose the next French monarch (the Duke of Lorraine might make his case for the throne since he’s a descendant of the West Frankish / French Carolingians). The one major sticking point with choosing from among the candidates will be the Salic Law. Ever since the extinction of the direct Capetians, the French royal house painted themselves into a tight corner with the male line only rule which while it kept a foreign ruler off the French throne it as now in TTL has backfired on them. Since the Estates-General will be the ones croosing the next ruler, they’ll have the political cover to abolish the Salic Law and replace it with a sons before daughters rule with a no foreigner clause should a future French monarch die without direct French heirs.
 
Last edited:
they’ll have the political cover to abolish the Salic Law and replace it with a sons before daughters rule with a no foreigner clause should a future French monarch die without direct French heirs.
Or they could just implement semi-salic law the male line and then if its extinct the female line.
 
What if the Estates General choose a powerless meber of the Courtenay's and try to reign in proto parliamentary way? With a few Magnates Families who can struggle for influence at the Court or Estates General.Reulting in a few decades of chaos ooh I like that!
A nice title for a History of that Era could be "Connetable's Cardinals and the Courtenay Chaos" or The Doomed Experiment of The Estates the cry for Absolutism.
 
My guess is if the legitimate male Capetians go completely extinct in the mid 16th century, the Estates-General will choose the next French monarch (the Duke of Lorraine might make his case for the throne since he’s a descendant of the West Frankish / French Carolingians). The one major sticking point with choosing from among the candidates will be the Salic Law. Ever since the extinction of the direct Capetians, the French royal house painted themselves into a tight corner with the male line only rule which while it kept a foreign ruler off the French throne it as now in TTL has backfired on them. Since the Estates-General will be the ones croosing the next ruler, they’ll have the political cover to abolish the Salic Law and replace it with a sons before daughters rule with a no foreigner clause should a future French monarch die without direct French heirs.
Correct it would be up to the Estates-General, though a Papal decree could also do it.
 
Top