French perform much better at Mers-el-Kébir

what if the french put up a much better fight at Mers-el-Kébir and seriously damage the british attackers,while escaping destruction itself? What Political effects will this have on the british,and will it give more legitemacy to vichy-france?

As to how they achieve this,well i had in mind they rush to attain full combat readiness after getting the ultimatum,and having plain more luck in the interception of aircraft,achieving hits and especially not having the bretagne explode so fast.
 
You can't fight from the dockyard. So, assuming the French make it to sea and survive, where are they going?

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Archibald

Banned
Hey, imagine a Jutland-like battleship brawl outside Mers El Kebir !

There were the three Bretagne-class and the two Dunkerque battlecruisers, quite a potent force (although the best French battleships were not there - Richelieu was in Dakar, Jean Bart still in the shipyard in France).
Against them: one R-class, one Queen Elizabeth, and the mighty Hood.

I would say that the Bretagne can face the older battleships while Dunkerque and Strasbourg try to handle Hood.
The French are at a disavantage because of smaller guns - more or less 13 inch vs the British 15 inch.
The Bretagne-class had 340 mm guns (more or less 13 inch) but they ten of them (five double turrets, two fore, two aft, and a centerline, the later not very useful - it was removed on one of three in the class, can't remember which) so the broadside weight shouldn't be too far from eight 15'in. Of course there's the issue of elevation - Bretagne-class couldn't shoot far enough. I think that issue had been corrected on the Dunkerques.

A duel between Hood and the Dunkerque twins would be awesome. It would be the battlecruiser swan song.
 
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Deleted member 94680

If the French are at combat readiness, their best chance is to fight their way out of port and run for it.

The force described on the British side probably wouldn't be able to stop them from escaping if they're sailing and firing well.

However, if they escape, where do they end up? The British are going to hunt them down, with a bigger and more prepared force until they're on the bottom.
 
If HMS Hood blows up like it did later on; the shot that blew up the Bretagne misses, and the French get their act together and man their coastal forts, will Sommerville persist in trying to attack Mers-el-Kebir head on ?
 
Don't forget the Ark Royal. If the french sail out, they'll most likely end out of air cover, at least cover that can reach them in usefull time. The Swordfish planes from the carrier would have a "target-rich" environement. I doubt they would actually be able to sink a BB on their own(not enough planes, small torpedoes), but the Bismarck proved they did need to: just spread damage around, harass the fleet, force them to manouver to avoid them...
 

Archibald

Banned
Not quite. The Commandant Teste was also there, although not a true aircraft carrier, it was better than nothing. According to Wikipedia

she embarked six Loire 130s and eight Latécoère 298s
Loire 130 is more or less France one Walrus, while the Laté 298 was a much more modern design. While strictly a torpedo floatplane, Laté 298 might try a hand at intercepting Swordfishs :p
They had two light machine guns in the wings and a third manned by the navigator.
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Not quite. The Commandant Teste was also there, although not a true aircraft carrier, it was better than nothing. According to Wikipedia


Loire 130 is more or less France one Walrus, while the Laté 298 was a much more modern design. While strictly a torpedo floatplane, Laté 298 might try a hand at intercepting Swordfishs :p
The Ark Royal carried Skuas. Bad as they were, they would be enough for the Laté...
 
IIRC, French land-based aircraft did indeed intercept and shoot down a British aircraft, and a couple more were shut down by AAA, no?
 
Don't forget the Ark Royal. If the french sail out, they'll most likely end out of air cover, at least cover that can reach them in usefull time. The Swordfish planes from the carrier would have a "target-rich" environement. I doubt they would actually be able to sink a BB on their own(not enough planes, small torpedoes), but the Bismarck proved they did need to: just spread damage around, harass the fleet, force them to manouver to avoid them...

the strasbourg did manage to sail into the sea,and while attacked by swordfishs,the attacks were rather ineffective. this could have gone worse,but its plausible the french fleet could shrug of the carrier attacks.
 
IIRC, French land-based aircraft did indeed intercept and shoot down a British aircraft, and a couple more were shut down by AAA, no?
Yes, but the RN was close to shore, so this was much easier. In a naval engagment offshore, the french fighters would either have to loiter over the fleet (and I don't think they would have endurance for that), or wait at home for a call for help. With no radar, any such call would come too late.
 

Archibald

Banned
According to Wikipedia,
Before negotiations were formally terminated, British Fairey Swordfish planes escorted by obsolete Blackburn Skuas were dispatched from Ark Royal to drop magnetic mines in the path of the French ships' route to sea. This force was intercepted by equally obsolete French Curtiss H-75 fighters. One of the Skuas was shot down by French fighters and crashed into the sea, killing its two-man crew, the only British fatalities in the action.

Obsolete my a$$ in 1940 you'd better fly Curtiss H-75 than Skuas when facing 109s...

where are they going?

To Toulon of course ! That what Strasbourg did, and Dunkerque although badly damaged intented to follow, that's why the next day more Swordfish were send, and a torpedo hit the Terre Neuve minelayer, causing the explosion of 14 depth charges on board, an enormous explosion that badly wrecked Dunkerque that was moored nearby.
 
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Yes, but the RN was close to shore, so this was much easier. In a naval engagment offshore, the french fighters would either have to loiter over the fleet (and I don't think they would have endurance for that), or wait at home for a call for help. With no radar, any such call would come too late.

Why should the French go off in the middle of the Med when they can easily stay right next to their coastal guns and air base?
 

Deleted member 1487

A full on battle against the Brits politically would be pretty bad for anglo-french relations, perhaps somewhat worse even than IOTL. Not sure that's enough to get any different result from OTL: the French get angry and do pretty much nothing.
 
the strasbourg did manage to sail into the sea,and while attacked by swordfishs,the attacks were rather ineffective. this could have gone worse,but its plausible the french fleet could shrug of the carrier attacks.
Yes, but, afaik, he had to manouver to avoid them. A ship manouvering hard to avoid aircraft won't hit anything. And never forget the Bismarck... one lucky hit...
 

Archibald

Banned
For the record, Mers El Kebir happened on July 3, 1940 while Pétain got full powers handled to him (by a much cut-down Assemblée Nationale) on July 10. I think MEK was the final nail in the coffin of the Anglo-French relationship... you'll never know, butterflies might flap their wings and prevent the old a$$hole from creating Vichy France...
 
Why should the French go off in the middle of the Med when they can easily stay right next to their coastal guns and air base?

To have the support of the coastal guns, the BBs would have to stay very close to shore, afaik. That would dangerously cut down on their manouvering area.
 
Hey, imagine a Jutland-like battleship brawl outside Mers El Kebir !

There were the three Bretagne-class and the two Dunkerque battlecruisers, quite a potent force (although the best French battleships were not there - Richelieu was in Dakar, Jean Bart still in the shipyard in France).
Against them: one R-class, one Queen Elizabeth, and the mighty Hood.

I would say that the Bretagne can face the older battleships while Dunkerque and Strasbourg try to handle Hood.
The French are at a disavantage because of smaller guns - more or less 13 inch vs the British 15 inch.
The Bretagne-class had 340 mm guns (more or less 13 inch) but they ten of them (five double turrets, two fore, two aft, and a centerline, the later not very useful - it was removed on one of three in the class, can't remember which) so the broadside weight shouldn't be too far from eight 15'in. Of course there's the issue of elevation - Bretagne-class couldn't shoot far enough. I think that issue had been corrected on the Dunkerques.

A duel between Hood and the Dunkerque twins would be awesome. It would be the battlecruiser swan song.

Problem here is that the Bretagne's were RANCID ships. They'd not been given a modernisation since WW1 save for 1 of the class which gave up her amidships turret for a catapult and hangar. Beyond that they'd not seen many changes, and whilst their gun elevation was thankfully increased they are out ranged. They were slow, their armour scheme was bad and we've no clue about French gunnery.

The D&S are good ships but they have their problems too. The French guns whilst basically two turrets glued together, fired as a single unit. So the guns would either fire as pairs at the same time or all four all at once. This produced some nasty effects on their guns accuracy, as the blast of the guns would throw the shells off slightly. Sure its not much but in naval terms its a LOT. They didn't fix this until post war on their surviving ships where an interrupter system was fitted so the guns would fire like half a second after each other. Also they are in no way shape or form built to take 15 inch rounds, and French AA was very weak. Their 37mm gun was basically not up to standard and other than that they had some 50cal MG equivalents and thats it.

The main problem is getting out of the harbour and breaking contact, if the D&S run then thats GREAT for the Hood. They can't fire backwards, she can fire forwards and her guns can penetrate their armour and she's got good protection against their guns. To fight the Hood the D&S have to get into a turning battle which the Hood will oblige whilst trying to pull them back towards the R and QE. The Bretagne's are simply outclassed by the R and Queen, and sure there's 3 of them, but they are very vulnerable to 15-inch rounds. And then what do you do? You get out great, do you then stick at the speed of the Bretagne's which is at best 20 knots, possibly less. Or do you have the D&S run whilst leaving them behind? The Hood's commanders not going to go MUURR ME UM ENGLANDE KAPTIN!!! (and be the usual window licking retards that british military are so often portrayed on this site as) and try fight two ships at once, especially ones that can hurt him. So he lets them go, the arks aircraft can go after them.

Then he turns and joins the R and QE in slaughtering the Bretagne's. Or do they all stick together and pootle along at 20 knots and then its a general engagement where the RN has the advantage of longer ranged guns and aircraft, as well as cruiser and DD support.
 
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