French Options if Germany goes east in 1914

Assuming Germany diverts a large chunk of its forces to East Prussia and waits to get DOWed by France, what are France's options? Setting aside the debate on whether Germany actually achieving this is plausible or not, what does France do here?

In accordance with France's alliance with Russia, I'm taking it for granted that France will still declare war on Germany. Also holding up their end of the alliance, they'll be making offensives in Alsace-Lorraine, but it seems unlikely they'll achieve any major breakthrough.
 
They would aim for the iron in Alsace-Lorraine and try to knock it out of use in artillery, maybe. Depending on the number, Germany could fold, but if failed, the Germans probably would counterattack. and take Briey-Longwy. I am unsure what happens next, but the Germans then probably would drive against the Russian salient in Poland, and the UK would be out of the war for a while, giving the Germans time to stock up on supplies if they wish to do so. I could see the Americans being clearly unwilling to join the war at all without an easy target for any British propaganda, and so the Germans would probably never draw in the Americans, eventually winning the war.
 
If France goes to war, Joffre will stick to the Plan.

And the Plan is: Plan XVII: Scream and Leap. Bring a big mop and a lot of shovels.
 
1280px-Plan_XVII.svg.png

What Scream and Leap would have looked like.
 
I think Germany had a well developed counterattack doctrine at that point, so that would have fallen back and lost the mines, correct?
 
1280px-Plan_XVII.svg.png

What Scream and Leap would have looked like.
Guessing no one decides to quibble over going through a tiny sliver of Belgium.

Expect counterattacks to happen soon and for France to have give up at least part of whatever gains they make.
 
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@Help has a good point that the iron ore mines of Lorraine would have become important quickly in this scenario - something we've discussed in other threads here in the past...

Consider Germany: In 1913, it produced 26.77 million tons of iron (second most in the world only to the U.S.). Of that, 21.1 million tons were mined in Lorraine.

France's dependency on Lorraine iron ore was even more lopsided: 21.57 million tons of iron ore produced in 1913, of which 90% was mined in Lorraine.

[Source: Abraham Berglund, "The Iron-Ore Problem of Lorraine," The Quarterly Journal of Economics, Vol. 33, No. 3 (May, 1919), pp. 531-554 (24 pages)]

And then: It's remarkable to consider how the main iron ore field for BOTH Germany and France basically straddled the border:

2AKHMAG.jpg


In the Great War of our history, this was settled quickly by the German offensive, which left both the French fields basically in German hands, with its own fields securely behind that. But if Germany stays on defense in the West, this becomes a real vulnerability that has to be addressed.

The obvious go-to alternative iron ore source would have been Sweden. But Sweden in our time might have been hard pressed to make up not only for any impinged German mines, but also the Briey-Longwy mines, which quickly ended up being critical to the German war effort, according to a postwar study by a German economist, Dr. M. Schlenker:

"Dr. Schlenker proceeds to remark that there is no need of further argument to show that Sweden was not, and could not be, in a position to make good the deficiency arising thereby of 23.55 per cent; and continues: "It must therefore be described as a special stroke of good fortune that at the very commencement of the war Germany came into possession of the Briey ore basin, as without the French iron-ores it would have been impossible for the German iron industry to cover our own and our Allies' enormous requirements of munitions. Further, the great advantages which come to us from the occupation of the ore basin mean the reverse for France." As already shown above, the share with which the Department of Meurtheet-Moselle participated in the total extraction of iron-ores in France in 1913 was no less than 19,813,572 tons, whereof again the greater part came from the Briey basin, where the extraction of ores in 1913 soared up to 15,023,740 tons.​
Seeing that even the iron mines in the districts of the Department still held by France, and which are situated chiefly in the neighborhood of Nancy, are scarcely likely to have remained at work, France has lost, through the occupation, no less than roughly 90 per cent of her normal output of ironore, or, if we make allowance for the higher percentage of metal contained in the other French iron-ore, fully 85 per cent.​
According to a report submitted by Dr. Schroder, of Diisseldorf, on January 31, 1915, to the general meeting of the Association of German Metallurgists (Verein Deutscher Eisenhuttenleute) no less than 95 of the roughly 127 blast furnaces which were in blast at the commencement of 1913 out of the 170 altogether existing in France, are situated in the war zone, and even the furnaces situated behind the trenches are scarcely likely to have been kept in blast in view of the shortage of ores and the existing conditions in general, so that only some 30 blast furnaces remain which could continue to work uninterruptedly. As the later number includes some small furnaces of 30 to 60 tons daily output, while the large furnaces are situated mainly in the East of France, at least 80 per cent of the entire pig-iron production of France is likely to have been stopped by the war, and more especially by the rapid thrust forward beyond the Briey ore basin."​

(h/t to Wiking for that info, BTW.)

Of course, in a war where Britain remains neutral (thus removing her from the order of battle), and Germany has at least a fair chance of still having access to sizable imports from abroad, this bite might not be quite as severe. But it's a problem the German general staff would have to come grips with quickly.

But wait: The analysis doesn't stop here. France didn't use a lot of the iron she *did* mine. Of that 21.57 million tons of iron ore she mined in 1913, France exported 9,745,863 tons. The big hit here, then, from loss of access to the ore (which the Germans might not capture here, but could make inaccessible by being in a combat zone), would be to hard currency from the lost exports. And here, a neutral Britain will be of less help than as co-belligerent. Germany, BTW, exported far less of its iron - about 5 million tons.

And now, having said all THAT, there is another consideration here. In the Great War of OTL, the French actually relinquished the French portion of the Briey iron basin to Germany, who took over the area unopposed (!) on 4-5 August 1914. Note that this cannot be blamed on French response to the Germans pushing through Belgium in great strength, as that effort was barely beginning, and the French wouldn't even begin to respond to it for another week and a half at best. (h/t NoMommnsen) What this suggests is that, in fact, France will very probably not defend their own main iron industry in this TL, nor capture Germany's. They will also badly bungle their early-war efforts to secure foreign steel. In short, this appears to be one more aspect in which there was a serious blind spot in French military planning (especially as manifested by Joffre) in the years leading up to the war, and in its opening stages.
 
Anyway, the other question is just what Joffre's "Scream and Leap" plan would have amounted to on the ground.

The real problem was the inflexible mindset that shaped Plan XVII - not just Joffre's dogmatic commitment to the offensive, but his disregard of extensive intelligence that undermined the premises on which the plan was based. There's a ruthless examination of this in a 1967 RAND study by W.A. Stewart, "Lanrezac, Joffre, and Plan XVII." Key excerpt:

joffre excerpt 1.png


So Joffre refused to fully accept all the intel the French were getting that the Germans *were* planning to integrate reserve corps into the front line of attack (and defense). The result was that he would be facing a great deal more German ground strength in Alsace-Lorraine *regardless* of whether the Germans stayed on defense in the West or not. Throw in the difficult terrain into which Joffre's schwerpunkt would have been directed, and, well... "No more foolhardly plan of plan of campaign could have been devised."

Plan XVII would have led to a horrific slaughter once commenced, just as its opening stages in August in the war of OTL began to do. Here, though, with the Germans shifting the three armies that would have executed the Schlieffen Plan to the Russian front, Joffre would not be forced to suspend the offensive by the massive enveloping German right wing descending on the Marne. He'd keep attacking. Probably deep into the fall before lack of munitions and manpower made it impossible to continue.

At this point, there would be heavy pressure to a) pursue Belgian cooperation in a French movement to try and flank the Germans (Joffre was a fanatic on this point). How successful could that be? And b) try to find a way to get Britain into the war. But the longer Britain stays out, and the more the news of the horrific nature of the war on the ground reaches the British press, the harder that will be to do, I think.

The variables become more complicated. Meanwhile, the Russian pressure on Paris to resume offensive operations as they face the cream of the Heer tearing across Poland and Lithuania would be ratcheting up by the day...
 
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Guessing no one decides to quibble over going through a tiny sliver of Belgium.

Except counterattacks to happen soon and for France to have give up at least part of whatever gains they make.

The short answer, as I undrstand it, is that Joffre premised Fifth Army's advance on a prompt German violation of Belgium, which he thought virtually certain. It would solve his problem (of Belgian neutrality) for him.

There were three possibilities Plan XVII considered:
1) that the Germans would respect Belgian and Luxembourgeois neutrality and attack the Belfort–Épinal and Toul–Verdun lines; or
2) advance through Luxembourg in the vicinity of Verdun, then make a smaller attack into Belgium; or
3) defend in Lorraine and attack through Belgium (effectively some variant of what we know as the Schleiffen Plan).

Joffre banked on #3 (with no frontline use of German reserve corps!), with a possibility of #2, which of course would also serve his purposes.

Note what possibility is not considered: Germany remaining on defense in the West.

Or was it?

I just came across a previous discussion of this in an older thread, where @AJE pulled up a paper by Terence Holmes at a conference six years ago, "Not the Schlieffen Plan 1914":

If Moltke had followed Schlieffen’s real intentions for the counter-offensive conduct of a two-front war, the first great battle of 1914 would have been fought in Lorraine in the third week of hostilities, on terms much more favourable to Germany than they were at the battle of the Marne. We can reconstruct this alternative scenario because we know exactly what the French chief of staff Joseph Joffre intended to do if the Germans did not invade Belgium.​
French war planning was constrained by two political imperatives. In the first place, France was committed by agreement with her Russian ally to launch an ‘all-out and immediate’ attack against Germany as soon as possible after the outbreak of war. Moreover, the French government had resolved not to encroach on Belgian territory unless the Germans did so first. Joffre was therefore obliged to incorporate in his war plans a variant which allowed for a full-scale offensive avoiding Belgian territory altogether, and that would have come into effect in 1914 if the Germans had stayed on the defensive and not entered Belgium. For this eventuality Joffre decided that three of his five armies, comprising some 60 percent of his first-line troops, should invade Lorraine on 14 August, aiming initially to reach the line of the river Saar between Sarrebourg and Saarbrücken (Doughty 2010, 146-8, 155-8, 168). Ominously, that position was flanked at both ends by the German fortresses of Metz and Strasbourg.​
Schlieffen had long before outlined how the Germans should exploit a massive French incursion through ‘the relatively narrow space between Metz and Strasbourg’. The aim must not be to push the enemy back to his fortified border. Rather, he had to be engaged on three sides, ‘from Metz, from the Saar and from Strasbourg’, and brought to a standstill there, which would give the Germans an excellent chance of decisive victory by means of envelopment attacks out of Metz and Strasbourg. The ultimate aim of this ‘attack on the enemy’s flank and rear’ would be to surround the French invasion forces and ‘not just defeat them, but lay them low and as far as possible annihilate them’ (Boetticher 1933, 260).​
Joffre himself was acutely aware of the perils attending a French offensive in Lorraine. He said that the object would be to rupture the German front, but he conceded​
that:​

"in the course of this operation our forces would be liable to be taken in flank by attacks coming in all probability from both Metz and the region of Molsheim-Strasbourg. By penetrating like a wedge into the midst of the enemy’s lines we would be more or less inviting envelopment (Joffre 1932, 74-5)."​
But a German defensive posture in 1914 would have compelled Joffre to embark on that hazardous course of action — that was precisely what he was committed to if the Germans refrained from attacking through Belgium and waited instead for the opportunity to counter-attack. In that event, the war would have started with a great battle of encirclement as soon as the French First, Second and Fourth Armies had completed their short advance into the danger zone between Metz and Strasbourg. Speaking in 1904 of the strategic importance of these fortresses, Schlieffen once again emphasized their role in counter-offensive operations: ‘I do not mean a Metz and Strasbourg that are to be besieged and defended, but rather a Metz and Strasbourg in which armies are assembled and through which they march in order to attack the enemy by surprise’ (Zuber 2004, 160).​
As AJE puts it: This may have failed if the French didn't use such a strategy, and they nearly did when Victor-Constant Michel, the de facto French Chief of Staff, made a defensive plan to counter a potential German move through Belgium. But the French generals and government rejected his plans due to a lack of offensive spirit, fired him, and replaced him with Joseph Joffre, who once again made offensive plans of the type that Schlieffen could take advantage of, and these were the plans that Holmes is describing, so it would have ultimately worked in that respect in 1914.

It explains why the Germans fortified Metz and Strasbourg to a very high degree while leaving the border between them, and therefore the iron ore mines, almost undefended. The same thing that made those mines an apparent vulnerability also made them useful as bait for the French to invade.

As to why Moltke diverged from this plan and created what is erroneously called the "Schlieffen Plan," the obvious and simple answer is that he was a fool. But more specifically, Holmes has this to say (at the very end of the article):

One obvious question remains: Moltke had studied the Schlieffen plan, so why did he pay no heed to Schlieffen’s argument about the number of troops that would be necessary for a decisive attack on France? The answer may perhaps be found in their opposing views of the relation between attack and defence. Echoing Clausewitz once again, Schlieffen maintained that ‘the defensive is the stronger form of war’, but Moltke was convinced that ‘the stronger form of combat lies in the offensive’ because it represents a ‘striving after positive goals’. He allowed that the offensive spirit could be blunted in a long-drawn-out assault on the French border position, but he thought that an attack ‘in the open’, brought about by an advance through Belgium, would lend the German army ‘the impetus and initiative that we need all the more, the greater the number of enemies we have to contend with’. Moltke subscribed to a then fashionable belief that the moral advantage of the offensive could make up for a lack of numbers. Unfortunately for the Germans, it was Schlieffen’s Clausewitzian outlook that was vindicated at the battle of the Marne.​
 
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Thanks for all the information @Athelstane, this has given me some good things to look into.

I think Joffre will start begging the government to broker any deal they can in exchange for Belgian participation. Whether they'll get it is another matter - Britain won't like it, and while I don't intend to claim Belgium would not engage in opportunism a la Italy, it doesn't seem that impulse was as prevalent.
 
The short answer, as I undrstand it, is that Joffre premised Fifth Army's advance on a prompt German violation of Belgium, which he thought virtually certain. It would solve his problem (of Belgian neutrality) for him.

There were three possibilities Plan XVII considered:
1) that the Germans would respect Belgian and Luxembourgeois neutrality and attack the Belfort–Épinal and Toul–Verdun lines; or
2) advance through Luxembourg in the vicinity of Verdun, then make a smaller attack into Belgium; or
3) defend in Lorraine and attack through Belgium (effectively some variant of what we know as the Schleiffen Plan).

Joffre banked on #3 (with no frontline use of German reserve corps!), with a possibility of #2, which of course would also serve his purposes.

Note what possibility is not considered: Germany remaining on defense in the West.

Or was it?

I just came across a previous discussion of this in an older thread, where @AJE pulled up a paper by Terence Holmes at a conference six years ago, "Not the Schlieffen Plan 1914":

If Moltke had followed Schlieffen’s real intentions for the counter-offensive conduct of a two-front war, the first great battle of 1914 would have been fought in Lorraine in the third week of hostilities, on terms much more favourable to Germany than they were at the battle of the Marne. We can reconstruct this alternative scenario because we know exactly what the French chief of staff Joseph Joffre intended to do if the Germans did not invade Belgium.​
French war planning was constrained by two political imperatives. In the first place, France was committed by agreement with her Russian ally to launch an ‘all-out and immediate’ attack against Germany as soon as possible after the outbreak of war. Moreover, the French government had resolved not to encroach on Belgian territory unless the Germans did so first. Joffre was therefore obliged to incorporate in his war plans a variant which allowed for a full-scale offensive avoiding Belgian territory altogether, and that would have come into effect in 1914 if the Germans had stayed on the defensive and not entered Belgium. For this eventuality Joffre decided that three of his five armies, comprising some 60 percent of his first-line troops, should invade Lorraine on 14 August, aiming initially to reach the line of the river Saar between Sarrebourg and Saarbrücken (Doughty 2010, 146-8, 155-8, 168). Ominously, that position was flanked at both ends by the German fortresses of Metz and Strasbourg.​
Schlieffen had long before outlined how the Germans should exploit a massive French incursion through ‘the relatively narrow space between Metz and Strasbourg’. The aim must not be to push the enemy back to his fortified border. Rather, he had to be engaged on three sides, ‘from Metz, from the Saar and from Strasbourg’, and brought to a standstill there, which would give the Germans an excellent chance of decisive victory by means of envelopment attacks out of Metz and Strasbourg. The ultimate aim of this ‘attack on the enemy’s flank and rear’ would be to surround the French invasion forces and ‘not just defeat them, but lay them low and as far as possible annihilate them’ (Boetticher 1933, 260).​
Joffre himself was acutely aware of the perils attending a French offensive in Lorraine. He said that the object would be to rupture the German front, but he conceded​
that:​

"in the course of this operation our forces would be liable to be taken in flank by attacks coming in all probability from both Metz and the region of Molsheim-Strasbourg. By penetrating like a wedge into the midst of the enemy’s lines we would be more or less inviting envelopment (Joffre 1932, 74-5)."​
But a German defensive posture in 1914 would have compelled Joffre to embark on that hazardous course of action — that was precisely what he was committed to if the Germans refrained from attacking through Belgium and waited instead for the opportunity to counter-attack. In that event, the war would have started with a great battle of encirclement as soon as the French First, Second and Fourth Armies had completed their short advance into the danger zone between Metz and Strasbourg. Speaking in 1904 of the strategic importance of these fortresses, Schlieffen once again emphasized their role in counter-offensive operations: ‘I do not mean a Metz and Strasbourg that are to be besieged and defended, but rather a Metz and Strasbourg in which armies are assembled and through which they march in order to attack the enemy by surprise’ (Zuber 2004, 160).​
As AJE puts it: This may have failed if the French didn't use such a strategy, and they nearly did when Victor-Constant Michel, the de facto French Chief of Staff, made a defensive plan to counter a potential German move through Belgium. But the French generals and government rejected his plans due to a lack of offensive spirit, fired him, and replaced him with Joseph Joffre, who once again made offensive plans of the type that Schlieffen could take advantage of, and these were the plans that Holmes is describing, so it would have ultimately worked in that respect in 1914.

It explains why the Germans fortified Metz and Strasbourg to a very high degree while leaving the border between them, and therefore the iron ore mines, almost undefended. The same thing that made those mines an apparent vulnerability also made them useful as bait for the French to invade.

As to why Moltke diverged from this plan and created what is erroneously called the "Schlieffen Plan," the obvious and simple answer is that he was a fool. But more specifically, Holmes has this to say (at the very end of the article):

One obvious question remains: Moltke had studied the Schlieffen plan, so why did he pay no heed to Schlieffen’s argument about the number of troops that would be necessary for a decisive attack on France? The answer may perhaps be found in their opposing views of the relation between attack and defence. Echoing Clausewitz once again, Schlieffen maintained that ‘the defensive is the stronger form of war’, but Moltke was convinced that ‘the stronger form of combat lies in the offensive’ because it represents a ‘striving after positive goals’. He allowed that the offensive spirit could be blunted in a long-drawn-out assault on the French border position, but he thought that an attack ‘in the open’, brought about by an advance through Belgium, would lend the German army ‘the impetus and initiative that we need all the more, the greater the number of enemies we have to contend with’. Moltke subscribed to a then fashionable belief that the moral advantage of the offensive could make up for a lack of numbers. Unfortunately for the Germans, it was Schlieffen’s Clausewitzian outlook that was vindicated at the battle of the Marne.​
/thread
 
The outlook for Russia into 1915 looks rather bleak - France may make gains at great cost, but it seems unlikely they'll be able to force Germany shift too many troops west.

Perhaps a solely French Salonika/Dardanelles campaign, assuming Ottoman participation? The chances of success seem particularly remote, but it's something.
 
The outlook for Russia into 1915 looks rather bleak - France may make gains at great cost, but it seems unlikely they'll be able to force Germany shift too many troops west.

Perhaps a solely French Salonika/Dardanelles campaign, assuming Ottoman participation? The chances of success seem particularly remote, but it's something.

Problem is, Britain and Italy are neutral at this point, and the French have to detail a good deal of their capital ship strength at the Otranto Barrage, to keep the Austrians hemmed in. And they have to at least keep an eye on the Italians. They may not be able to spare the naval forces for Salonika - especially if they have to do it against Greek resistance. Venizelos's hand is going to be weakened by British neutrality.

Meanwhile, the FrenchArmy has to man the 50 or so miles the BEF defended in OTL in 1915 on the Western Front. They'll really have to scrape the barrel bottom to find troops for a Balkan operation.
 
one interesting variation would be that when due to false information, misreporting or just assumptions, the french think the germans moved into belgium (but actually didn't) and move into belgium, but then essentially are the ones to invade belgium.
 
Point taken, the French are going to be spread pretty thin by late 1914.

Are we assuming Joffre was able to move through Belgium?

Sorry, that was admitedly assuming that Belgium gets dragged into the war.

It's a fair point: If Joffre doesn't force his way in, then the French don't have to man as many miles of front.

Then again, Joffre would have been stacking up the poilus like cordwood in the Vosges all autumn, even *without* a German encirclement operation in central Lorraine...
 
one interesting variation would be that when due to false information, misreporting or just assumptions, the french think the germans moved into belgium (but actually didn't) and move into belgium, but then essentially are the ones to invade belgium.

Which would be joyously received in London!
 
Sorry, that was admitedly assuming that Belgium gets dragged into the war.

It's a fair point: If Joffre doesn't force his way in, then the French don't have to man as many miles of front.

Then again, Joffre would have been stacking up the poilus like cordwood in the Vosges all autumn, even *without* a German encirclement operation in central Lorraine...
The result of all this poilu stacking could achieve some gains, and may well capture the iron mines, but they could wind up losing them to counterattacks. Killbox anyone?
 
The result of all this poilu stacking could achieve some gains, and may well capture the iron mines, but they could wind up losing them to counterattacks. Killbox anyone?

Yeah. If you look up at the Holmes paper excerpt I posted yesterday, that actually was Schlieffen's idea. Use the iron ore and the lack of field fortifications to lure Joffree deep into German Lorraine, and then hit him in his flanks from Metz and Strasbourg. Note in turn that Joffre admitted the danger. But he was intent on trying anyway:

But a German defensive posture in 1914 would have compelled Joffre [thanks to the agreement with the Russians] to embark on that hazardous course of action — that was precisely what he was committed to if the Germans refrained from attacking through Belgium and waited instead for the opportunity to counter-attack. In that event, the war would have started with a great battle of encirclement as soon as the French First, Second and Fourth Armies had completed their short advance into the danger zone between Metz and Strasbourg.​
 
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