French Lombardy

What if France held on Lombardy to the present, would Lombardy be a French industrial center like what it did OTL in Italy?
 

Prefrence

Banned
When did they hold onto it? during the Italian wars?

I think it would be rather interesting for a Napoleonic Victory that leaves a Kingdom of Italy (one that could later be incorporate into france)
 
When did they hold onto it? during the Italian wars?

I think it would be rather interesting for a Napoleonic Victory that leaves a Kingdom of Italy (one that could later be incorporate into france)

During the Italian wars when the Valois claimed it.
 
It could certainly be an industrial center, not sure if a French one though. I was always of the belief that even if the French managed to take and keep Milan, it might eventually be spun off to a second son. After, the claim of Milan was also often the claim of the Duke d'Orléans. The Valois Duke of Orléans brought the claim into the kingdom through Valentina Visconti, and her son Charles d'Orléans (the poet) even effectually tried to claim the Duchy... preliminary treaties between François Ier and Charles V also offered François' second son either Milan or the Netherlands, ect.

That's just me though.
 
It could certainly be an industrial center, not sure if a French one though. I was always of the belief that even if the French managed to take and keep Milan, it might eventually be spun off to a second son. After, the claim of Milan was also often the claim of the Duke d'Orléans. The Valois Duke of Orléans brought the claim into the kingdom through Valentina Visconti, and her son Charles d'Orléans (the poet) even effectually tried to claim the Duchy... preliminary treaties between François Ier and Charles V also offered François' second son either Milan or the Netherlands, ect.

That's just me though.

I was thinking of Savoy doing what the Lorenians did, they lose Savoy and marry with the Habsburgs.
 
Wait, the Netherlands? How did Francois have a claim to that?

To make peace between France and Spain, Charles V offered François' son Charles, the Duke of Orléans two choices around 1545. Marry his daughter who would have the Netherlands as her dowry, or marry his niece the daughter of Ferdinand and take Milan. The Duke of Orléans fell ill and died though; it was most likely a plot by Charles V to divide the French Royal Family, as the Dauphin protested his own claims to Milan: plus either match would make Orléans a sovereign in his own right, practically.

The French Kings claimed Flanders primarily, but flimsily they could claim the entire Netherlands through the Burgundians. In their mind, the entire inheritance should've been theirs once Charles the Bold died.
 
To make peace between France and Spain, Charles V offered François' son Charles, the Duke of Orléans two choices around 1545. Marry his daughter who would have the Netherlands as her dowry, or marry his niece the daughter of Ferdinand and take Milan. The Duke of Orléans fell ill and died though; it was most likely a plot by Charles V to divide the French Royal Family, as the Dauphin protested his own claims to Milan: plus either match would make Orléans a sovereign in his own right, practically.

The French Kings claimed Flanders primarily, but flimsily they could claim the entire Netherlands through the Burgundians. In their mind, the entire inheritance should've been theirs once Charles the Bold died.

Flanders also was a French fief until the 16th century, legally speaking, so the French king in his role as feudal overlord could claim it in the event that the line of the liege holding it went extinct.
 
Flanders also was a French fief until the 16th century, legally speaking, so the French king in his role as feudal overlord could claim it in the event that the line of the liege holding it went extinct.

The same thing of what happened to Burgundy happened in the Angevin Empire actually, the King of England also ruled French Fiefs and the King of France wants to claim it back.
 
Linguistically, it wouldn't be impossibile, provided the dominant social strata change their literary and beurocratic language from Italian to French, which could happen not beyond the late Renaissance. Our vernacular Lombard speech, as a Gallo-Italic dialect, was and is indeed somewhat phonetically closer to French than to standard Italian.
 
Linguistically, it wouldn't be impossibile, provided the dominant social strata change their literary and beurocratic language from Italian to French, which could happen not beyond the late Renaissance. Our vernacular Lombard speech, as a Gallo-Italic dialect, was and is indeed somewhat phonetically closer to French than to standard Italian.
i agree on that.
 
Hrm. You know, I'm not so sure Lombardy wouldn't remain part of "France." What territories were spun off from France under second sons in this period? None as far as I can tell.
 
Hrm. You know, I'm not so sure Lombardy wouldn't remain part of "France." What territories were spun off from France under second sons in this period? None as far as I can tell.

Lombardy was not integrated into France, though. The King's of France were always claiming to be Duke of Milan as well as King of France. It certainly would've had a separate administration. The fact of the matter is, it's separated from France through Savoy. Unless the French choose to permanently occupy Savoy and Piedmont (provoking the ire of the Italian Princes who might certainly want to throw the French out), the situation of France seems untenable. Spain was able to rule Milan as it also possessed Naples and held the Italian Princes in lockstep through the Army of Milan. Would France do the same thing?

I know you're trying to play Devil's Advocate, but Milan isn't an appanage like Orléannais, so comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Also, the Bourbon territories in the south would've likely been spun off: Henry IV refused to integrate them at first into the crown domain as he still had a living sister who had recently married the Duke of Lorraine. Had she had heirs with her husband, she would've been entitled to a portion of the inheritance according to how the inheritance laws had worked in the former Kingdom of Navarre. Had Henry IV had any other surviving siblings, they would've been entitled to a piece of the inheritence too. This miffed the French, especially the Parlement of Paris, as once Henry IV became King, all those lands merged into the "crown." Can the same argument be made for Milan, a Duchy which has it's own distinct history, customs, and bureacracy? Maybe so, but I think a separate administration would be likely.

Setting up a Duke of Orléans as Duke of Milan would accomplish French goals in the north and would also pacify the Italian Princes. The only other way France can permanently hold Milan without handing it to a second son would probably involving occupying Savoy/Piedmont, hosting a massive army in Milan to keep the Italian Princes in check, and quite possibly have ousted the Spanish from Naples (and maybe even Sicily, too).

Sounds like an overstretch to me, especially considering French commitments in trying to reclaim Flanders, their desires to meddle in Germany once the Reformation starts, ect.
 
To make peace between France and Spain, Charles V offered François' son Charles, the Duke of Orléans two choices around 1545. Marry his daughter who would have the Netherlands as her dowry, or marry his niece the daughter of Ferdinand and take Milan. The Duke of Orléans fell ill and died though; it was most likely a plot by Charles V to divide the French Royal Family, as the Dauphin protested his own claims to Milan: plus either match would make Orléans a sovereign in his own right, practically.

The French Kings claimed Flanders primarily, but flimsily they could claim the entire Netherlands through the Burgundians. In their mind, the entire inheritance should've been theirs once Charles the Bold died.

OTOH Mary the Rich and her descendants also claimed the entire inheritance, including the duchy of Burgundy. Furthermore it could be argued that the way Burgundy ended up in the hands of the house of Valois, that they held it as the heirs of old Capetian house of Burgundy. When king Henri of France gave Burgundy to his brother Robert, to end the succession dispute, he gave it away to his line and all natural (male and female) heirs.
The Valois king Jean the Good later inherited Burgundy through proximity of the blood, it didn't revert to the crown, in fact Burgundy explicitly demanded to stay separate from the French Crown (royal demesne).
However the ''final'' compromise of the treaty of Senlis, probably popular with neither party, proved to be somewhat stable.

Regarding the treaty it also stated that duke Charles of Orléans at the same time should receive some IIRC 5 French duchies in appanage.

A French Lombardy separated from the rest of France, could eventually be lost. Especially if something like Italian nationalism develops, which probably won't discriminate against French, Germans, Spaniards etc.
 
OTOH Mary the Rich and her descendants also claimed the entire inheritance, including the duchy of Burgundy. Furthermore it could be argued that the way Burgundy ended up in the hands of the house of Valois, that they held it as the heirs of old Capetian house of Burgundy. When king Henri of France gave Burgundy to his brother Robert, to end the succession dispute, he gave it away to his line and all natural (male and female) heirs.
The Valois king Jean the Good later inherited Burgundy through proximity of the blood, it didn't revert to the crown, in fact Burgundy explicitly demanded to stay separate from the French Crown (royal demesne).
However the ''final'' compromise of the treaty of Senlis, probably popular with neither party, proved to be somewhat stable.

Regarding the treaty it also stated that duke Charles of Orléans at the same time should receive some IIRC 5 French duchies in appanage.

A French Lombardy separated from the rest of France, could eventually be lost. Especially if something like Italian nationalism develops, which probably won't discriminate against French, Germans, Spaniards etc.

Yes. he was supposed to receive Angoulême, Châtellerault, and Bourbon on top of the Duchy of Orléans.

And yes, (flimsily) Mary's heirs could claim the entire Burgundian inheritance. But as Burgundy had been part a part of France and Jean II claimed it after the death of the last Capetian Duke, it was regranted to his son as an appanage. Hence in the absence of any male heirs, all of of the Burgundian French fiefs returned to the crown. Louis XI, being the spider that he was, tried to extend that claim to the whole of the Low Countries. He didn't outright claim it was his, but tried to convince Mary to wed his son the Dauphin. But as we know, that failed. Charles V himself nearly reclaimed Burgundy proper after Pavia, but François Ier quickly disavowed the Treaty of Madrid.
 
That still depends on how the dukes of Valois Burgundy gained those, for instance the county of Flanders was inherited by marriage (Philip the Bold married Margaret of Flanders) and Flanders did have a tradition, which allowed to inherit (as also was the case in the majority of the holdings of the House of Valois-Burgundy in the empire (in the Low Countries and Franche Comté (and even Charolais)).

Even how Jean II gained Burgundy and passed it unto his fourth son Philip the Bold is open for debate. Given how valuable the inheritance was, that was exactly what they did.

Regarding Mary marrying the Dauphin, many things had happened since the days of John the Fearless, Philip the Good and Charles the bold between the houses of Valois-Burgundy, Valois-Orléans and Valois (-France), and it's safe to say that these branches all had become estranged from each other (or rather Valois-Burgundy became estranged from the other two). Louis XI had been a rival of Mary's late father and while Frederick III of Habsburg had been indecisive and certainly being unwilling to grant Charles the Bold, everything he desired, they were on better terms.
In fact there had already been negotiations between Frederick and Charles for the wedding of Maximilian and Mary, Charles apparently (though characteristically) seemed to have demanded too much, but in the end Frederick got what he wanted by waiting for a much cheaper price;).
 
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