French India and longterm effects thereof

[EvolvedSaurian]

I don't know; while that's a fun one, I think I prefer the idea of Napoleon Bonaparte, Padishah of the Farangi Raj.

I admit, that does have a certain ring to it, but as long as Nappy's basic nature is the same, I don't see the Raj holding together all that long. OTL, though, he often talked of an invasion of India. If he's ruling it, where might his ambitions lie?

 

[The Sandman]

I admit, that does have a certain ring to it, but as long as Nappy's basic nature is the same, I don't see the Raj holding together all that long. OTL, though, he often talked of an invasion of India. If he's ruling it, where might his ambitions lie?

Afghanistan, China, Burma, Persia. But I'm figuring that even if Nappy lives longer in Indian exile than he did on St. Helena, he's probably going to spend most if not all of his remaining years simply conquering India. In other words, he gets enough time to unify the subcontinent and institute all sorts of legal reforms and other projects, then has the good grace to die before he has the chance to ruin it all by overreaching.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Afghanistan, China, Burma, Persia. But I'm figuring that even if Nappy lives longer in Indian exile than he did on St. Helena, he's probably going to spend most if not all of his remaining years simply conquering India. In other words, he gets enough time to unify the subcontinent and institute all sorts of legal reforms and other projects, then has the good grace to die before he has the chance to ruin it all by overreaching.

I'm starting to like this idea... who would succeed him though, the ATL King of Rome, or whatever title his father gives him?

Well, either way, I still have a hard time seeing a much wealthier, more middle-class and at least somewhat democratic France succumbing to revolution. At most, they'll force the king to accept a limited monarchy, as they did in OTL before he tried to run.

 

[William Blake]

I don't think it would make that big a difference - French Revolutionary ideals pretty much percolated throughout the entire world -

But why
take French Revolution as unavoidable? After all, given the
POD, the whole psychology
of the french population
would be different of what
it would be OTL. Ditto the French economy. Maybe the ATL event to
occupy the place of the OTL French Revolution would be the "Britannic Revolution" ...

 

[fhaessig]

I'm starting to like this idea... who would succeed him though, the ATL King of Rome, or whatever title his father gives him?.

Provided Napoleon is even born ( his birth is after PoD, IIRC ), there's absolutely zero chances of his marrying an archduchess of Austria. It's also unlikely he would marry Josephine de Beauharnais ( which means EUgene is likely out of the running ). He could, however, marry some important Indian princess ( say an important Rajah promises to adopt him and make him his heir if he marries his daughter; I'd guess he'd jump for it ) and get heirs, or have one of his brother ( or his son ) - again provided they are born, succeed him -, maybe Lucien.

Well, either way, I still have a hard time seeing a much wealthier, more middle-class and at least somewhat democratic France succumbing to revolution. At most, they'll force the king to accept a limited monarchy, as they did in OTL before he tried to run.

But why
take French Revolution as unavoidable? After all, given the
POD, the whole psychology
of the french population
would be different of what
it would be OTL. Ditto the French economy. Maybe the ATL event to
occupy the place of the OTL French Revolution would be the "Britannic Revolution" ...

That's a big question mark.

The PoD is far enough that it can unfreeze the social evolution of french society as a direct consequence ( from the wealth flowing from India into trader's hands and not into old style nobility ), which was one of the major trigger for the french revolution ( the other one, the state of french finances and taxes being also chenged as a reason of the PoD ).

It could really go either way. Slow evolution to a constitutionnal monarchy ( OTL initial goal ), violent explosion in France and royalist exile in India ( or revolutionary india also ) or reactionary France with a revolution in India ( if all malcontents, capable or ambitious scions of the 3rd estate chose the land of opportunities )

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

But why
take French Revolution as unavoidable? After all, given the
POD, the whole psychology
of the french population
would be different of what
it would be OTL. Ditto the French economy. Maybe the ATL event to
occupy the place of the OTL French Revolution would be the "Britannic Revolution" ...

I'm not saying it was unavoidable - I'm just saying that in OTL the ideas of the Revolution spread all over the world.

 

[William Blake]

I'm not saying it was unavoidable - I'm just saying that in OTL the ideas of the Revolution spread all over the world.

My point was that IATL those ideas might not even (entirely) arise - At least in France. Granted, some of
the OTL "revolutionary ideas" might arise eventually - But they might
just as probably arise somewhere other than france, or somewhen else than at a time
congruent with OTL "French Revolution";

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Provided Napoleon is even born ( his birth is after PoD, IIRC ), there's absolutely zero chances of his marrying an archduchess of Austria. It's also unlikely he would marry Josephine de Beauharnais ( which means EUgene is likely out of the running ). He could, however, marry some important Indian princess ( say an important Rajah promises to adopt him and make him his heir if he marries his daughter; I'd guess he'd jump for it ) and get heirs, or have one of his brother ( or his son ) - again provided they are born, succeed him -, maybe Lucien.

That is a point. Napoleon was born about ten (six, my bad) years after the sale, but about the same time as when France was starting to take control of Corsica. His mother fled to the hills and gave birth to him there. As for him marrying an Indian princess, that's quite a tantalizing possibility. Napoleon, ever the opportunist, would likely jump at the chance for a half-Indian heir. Not sure about a Raja though. As Flocc mentioned earlier, most Hindus wouldn't exactly like the idea of their daughter marrying an outcaste, which would likely cause caste-loss for both her and her father, as well as outcaste grandkids. I could be wrong though, I'm not exactly expert on how caste worked in those days.

 

[Flocculencio]

He could, however, marry some important Indian princess ( say an important Rajah promises to adopt him and make him his heir if he marries his daughter; I'd guess he'd jump for it ) and get heirs, or have one of his brother ( or his son ) - again provided they are born, succeed him -, maybe Lucien.

It doesn't work this way. To any Hindu of that time period, Napoelon is, like all non Hindus, casteless and therefore unclean. French rule can certainly be imposed through force of arms- just as Muslim rulers were recognised as overlords- but this is the best Napoleon can hope for. Marrying a princess isn't going to grant him any more legitimacy in Indian eyes. If he has the force of arms to gain recognition as Padishah, then he doesn't need any more legitimacy. If he doesn't, he's just another foreign warlord.

 

[Hendryk]

Marrying a princess isn't going to grant him any more legitimacy in Indian eyes. If he has the force of arms to gain recognition as Padishah, then he doesn't need any more legitimacy. If he doesn't, he's just another foreign warlord.

Let's have him marry an Indian woman anyway just for the heck of it.

The thing is, Napoleon's political ambitions were very much a byproduct of the French Revolution, which created opportunities for commoners like himself that just wouldn't have existed otherwise. I'm not sure an alternate Napoleon reaching adulthood in a TL without the French Revolution would even consider rising that high, though Thande's Leo Bone in LTTW is a good counter-example.

 

[Hendryk]

There are a few regions where vines can prosper though, notably the highlands of South India. I've had an Indian red of some sort before and it was quite decent.

In OTL, the British grew opium as a cash crop. Could we see the French, with their focus on the Middle East and North Africa rather than East Asia, grow cannabis instead?

 

[The Professor]

In OTL, the British grew opium as a cash crop. Could we see the French, with their focus on the Middle East and North Africa rather than East Asia, grow cannabis instead?

Interesting, especially as it has more uses. Could we see a better French Navy as a result of all that hemp?

 

[Faeelin]

In OTL, the British grew opium as a cash crop. Could we see the French, with their focus on the Middle East and North Africa rather than East Asia, grow cannabis instead?

I doubt it. The opium was needed as a trading good for China, which at the time had no need for western manufactures. And it produced far more trade goods than the middle east, so...

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

It doesn't work this way. To any Hindu of that time period, Napoelon is, like all non Hindus, casteless and therefore unclean. French rule can certainly be imposed through force of arms- just as Muslim rulers were recognised as overlords- but this is the best Napoleon can hope for. Marrying a princess isn't going to grant him any more legitimacy in Indian eyes. If he has the force of arms to gain recognition as Padishah, then he doesn't need any more legitimacy. If he doesn't, he's just another foreign warlord.

Yay, confirmation!

In OTL, the British grew opium as a cash crop. Could we see the French, with their focus on the Middle East and North Africa rather than East Asia, grow cannabis instead?

Unlikely, so long as France controls opium growing areas in India, especially Assam, and so long as so much silver was going into purchases of Chinese goods. But then, I'm sure you already know this, you mad Sinophile.

Anyway, any thoughts on the ARW spreading to the Isles? Possible or am I way off here?

 

[fhaessig]

The thing is, Napoleon's political ambitions were very much a byproduct of the French Revolution, which created opportunities for commoners like himself that just wouldn't have existed otherwise. I'm not sure an alternate Napoleon reaching adulthood in a TL without the French Revolution would even consider rising that high,.

Actually, Napoleon was considered (very) minor Nobility in Ancient Regime France. That's why he could get admitted to Artillerie School which was reserved for nobility ( well, that and support from his bishop uncle ).

And there were a few minor nobility which rose to high honors through military service in late ancient regime France. Vauban being the first which comes to mind, but there were others. Minor nobles could buy additionnal titles - land - or see their titles enlarged as reward from the King ( even ducal titles could be created out of nowhere - e.g. Duke De Richelieu -).

So I don't doubt that Napoleon's ambition will find ways to express itself. He may not be able to aim at being King of France, but Marshall of France, Duke de Buonapartes and Vice-Roy of India would be a nice goal, don't you think?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

My point was that IATL those ideas might not even (entirely) arise - At least in France. Granted, some of
the OTL "revolutionary ideas" might arise eventually - But they might
just as probably arise somewhere other than france, or somewhen else than at a time
congruent with OTL "French Revolution";

I just said that I don't think the French Revolution was inevitable, but if it did happen as per OTL, its ideas would spread all over the place like it did in OTL.

 

[William Blake]

I just said that I don't think the French Revolution was inevitable, but if it did happen as per OTL, its ideas would spread all over the place like it did in OTL.

But what Ideas would be those?
I'd say that they probably wouldn't be the same. Besides, woul the revolution neccessarily succeed?
A lot of the malcontents who supported it OTL would have long
departed for India. as fhaessig remarked, the revolution may succed in India and fail in France -
In which case all the intellectual
efervescence we now associate with France would IATL sprout in India. Who knows how the philosophical
evolution (that OTL happened in France) would be affected by the native thought, and mores?

 

[Hendryk]

as fhaessig remarked, the revolution may succed in India and fail in France -

That wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. India in the late 18th century was no more ready for a liberal revolution than Russia in 1917 was ready for a Marxist one--or China in 1949, for that matter. The disconnect between the revolutionaries' ideals and the reality on the ground would be overwhelming.

It would be better to find a way to phase out the caste system and give India a competent ruling class, preferably one that can command loyalty or at least obedience from both Hindus and Muslims.

 

[William Blake]

That wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. India in the late 18th century was no more ready for a liberal revolution than Russia in 1917 was ready for a Marxist one--or China in 1949, for that matter. The disconnect between the revolutionaries' ideals and the reality on the ground would be overwhelming.

All too true. But dystopies, if not worthwhile living on, are sometimes worthwhile speculating about.
The OTL French revolution was very much a materialistic, anti-religious
one. I shudder to think what ATL revolutionaries (if more than a little similar) will do to the Country of Mysticism...
In other words, France, even before the revolution, was far from being
the a country of much religious zeal or mysticism. Even so, the revolutionaries anti-religiosity was provoked enough, even by their tepid resistance, that they perpetrated quite an amount of barbaric repression. It would be predictable a much, much worse repression on India, because
(1) The peoples of India would probably resist more against foreigners who
tried to wean them off ancient uses and traditions than the french
people did OTL.
(2) Most revolutionaries would be French and would feel less restraint on repressing indians than they would repressing Frenchmen
(3) Much the same way, most revolutionaries would probably have less
tendence to accept uses and traditions of India than they would have
towards accepting those of France.

 

[Tobit]

If this were to be timeline, I think a focus on the British as well as the Spanish would be interesting. Would the British have the "French" Revolution instead? or would their preestablished liberal tradition continue to lead them to Constitutional Monarchy. Would The British decide to keep the Philippine and Cuba? If they do then how do the Spanish react? Would they in the end exist under the total domination of France?
What about Quebec and French Louisiana?