French Hatred in Germany?

BananaJoe

Banned
Hi. I just made an account for a story I want to do and since that story deals with an alternate German Racial Theory that is against French and Romance People at large rather than the Slavs as they did in real life. So I'm wondering,how much was the level of French hatred( Latinphobia?) In Weimar Germany and Nazi Germany in real life? And what specific events could I use to twist the screws to make such a kind of Racial Theory realistic?
 
There were a "Rivalry" between German and France what let to several conflicts and Wars like war of 1870 and it climax in WW1 and WW2

After WW1 were allot anger and hate do French harsh constraints and enforcements do Treaty of Versailles
Germans field wretched and bullied by French demands during Weimar Germany
Don't forget french occupy military part of Rheinland during this time

"the Annoying little Austrian" use this very clever with rhetoric "we shall avenge and defeat the French"

What let to rise of him to Power

so BananaJoe, you got a realistic base for your scenario
 
The French annexing the Rhineland like Foch wanted rather than just occupying it would make things worse, I would assume.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
... deals with an alternate German Racial Theory that is against French and Romance People at large rather than the Slavs as they did in real life. ... such a kind of Racial Theory realistic?
Could you give some kind of outline/your thoughts of how this ... new/alternate Racial Theory shall work/look alike ?
 
how much was the level of French hatred( Latinphobia?)

Wouldn't that be Francophobia? Although they are speakers of the latin/romance language, Latins usually refer to Spanish and Portuguese, maybe Italians. But there was no direct hatred towards them. I doubt any German would call French Latins. But then again, i'm not German.
 
Look over the stuff on the Mediterranean grouping by Madison Grant. You can also try to work in something with Celts, since they were the lower classes or orientalist occupants of much of France, Iberia, and Britain. The Romans and Germanic tribes often swooped in and took charge as the aristocracy. Or at least that is what many aristocrat's said, claiming descent from Franks, Goths, Lombards, etc. Though of course their own local Kings and heroes took precedent, I would say. If you want stuff aimed against Italy, say they are self righteous anti-Pope Papists under the thrall of Savoyards and the descednents of Doges. For Spain have the Germans angry at them having lost their colonies to the Americans before the Germans could get them, and have them lambast the mindset of the Interwar Period by some Soaniards that Iberians and Morrocans were seperated by the rest of the world by the Pyrenees and Atlas Mounains, and only seperated by each other by religion and the Straits of Hercules. For Portugal, have them play up Lusotropicalism or their part in the slave trade, maybe have the Germans bandy old Japanese art on the Nanban trade that had the Portuguese look like Jewish stereotypes. For both Spain and Italy the Germans can claim they have too much Arab blood in Andalusia and Siciliy, while whining to France and claiming they are trying to make themselves African or something. This stuff doesn't need to make sense. As for the Romanians, you will have plenty of fun looking over the disappearance of the Dacians and the history of the Vlach.
 

BananaJoe

Banned
Could you give some kind of outline/your thoughts of how this ... new/alternate Racial Theory shall work/look alike ?

Well, for how I would visualize it. The Racial Theory would still be centred on the "superiority" of the Nordic race but would interpret Slavic groups like Russians as having Nordic descent but being mongrelized like how they saw the French In real life( better way to put it?). And I also would interpret them as throwing the Yiddish population of Europe a bone given that the target of hatred is now directed at the French and to a lesser extent Italians( for betreyal in first world war) rather than the Jews.
 
Wouldn't that be Francophobia? Although they are speakers of the latin/romance language, Latins usually refer to Spanish and Portuguese, maybe Italians. But there was no direct hatred towards them. I doubt any German would call French Latins. But then again, i'm not German.

Latinphobia would be correct for the period. There's a recurring fear in Britain of the "Latin Alliance" -Spain, Italy and France- that would take control of the Mediterranean. Hitler could easily lump them together in his mind: Not only is France the ancient enemy, but the Italians were the "ally" that stabbed Germany in the back That really wouldn't be a hard sell in post war Germany To round it out- Portugal declared war on Germany and Spain, with its Hapsburg ties, should also have stood with Germany.

This really would be something a sick mind like Hitler's could come u with
 

NoMommsen

Donor
.... history of the Vlach.
"Vlach" or as it is spoken in german areas "wlesch" was in the middle age a rather pejoratively word for everything related to roman/romanic culture, that later on, even in the 19th century was often used a synonym for "untrue" or "dishonest".

... can see now what you might mean : the "mediterranian/roman" race in opposite everything northern/"hyperborean", ... with the slavs "salvagable", as they had soo many contact to germanic/nordics/varangians ...

Would like to see, what you come up with in the end, @BananaJoe :)
 
Hi. I just made an account for a story I want to do and since that story deals with an alternate German Racial Theory that is against French and Romance People at large rather than the Slavs as they did in real life. So I'm wondering,how much was the level of French hatred( Latinphobia?) In Weimar Germany and Nazi Germany in real life? And what specific events could I use to twist the screws to make such a kind of Racial Theory realistic?

This anti-French enough for you?

"France is, and remains by far, the most terrible enemy. This people, which is constantly becoming more Negrofied, constitutes...a grim danger for the existence of the European white race...For Germany...the French danger means an obligation to subordinate all considerations of sentiment, and to reach out the hand to those who, threatened as much as we are, will not tolerate...France's drive toward dominion."

I think you can guess the source...
 

Redbeard

Banned
Were the Nazi racial delusions explicit on Slavs in general?

They sure went totally crazy about Jews and I also realise the plans about near extermination of intellectual Poles and Russians to leave the rest as slave Labour, but other Slavs were readily included in the "German cause" although not as peers.

Anyway, I think we could be much closer to your situation, if we could "create" some situations in 19th century and early 20th century, where Slavs and Germans had a clear common enemy, and where the Slavs had been an obvious help to the Germans. Like the Poles bailing out the Austrians in 1683 before Vienna, but this time against the French.

Could it be the war of 1870 initially going terribly wrong for the Germans, and then some Slavs entering the scene as the Cavalry in the last moment? The problem is however, that by 1870 all Slavs would be included in either Prussia, Russia, Austria or Ottoman Empire.

So we also need an Independent Slav nation of a certain combat weight - Poland - and one created without stepping on too many German toes. Quite a challenge - we certainly need some brilliant dancers here!

Could we have the Poles defect from Napoleon in time, how about just before or during Battle of Leipzig - and be the ones who save Blücher from being wiped out? It still will be a long way before we have Prussia, Austria and Russia agree to give up territory to create an independent Poland, but I suppose both the Prussians and the Austrians in early 19th century were deeply dependent on British subsidies and all could find a reason to not let Russia grow too big. Now, what if we also have Alexander disgrace himself, like being captured by the French at Leipzig, which came close in OTL - and be liberated by Poles! The last, most effective but also very pleasant part of the plan, is having an explicitly attractive Polish girl thoroughly seduce King William Frederic of Prussia, the Crown Prince, the PM and the Queen. :cool::firstimekiss::love::p

General Blücher would prefer a French Grenadier, but I guess there would be plenty available of those after the war.*

*Among contemporaries there was a serious concern over Blücher's mental health. He was so have said to have claimed that he was pregnant and was to give birth to an elephant and that the father was a French Grenadier...:openedeyewink:
 

Perkeo

Banned
There were a "Rivalry" between German and France what let to several conflicts and Wars like war of 1870 and it climax in WW1 and WW2

After WW1 were allot anger and hate do French harsh constraints and enforcements do Treaty of Versailles
Germans field wretched and bullied by French demands during Weimar Germany
Don't forget french occupy military part of Rheinland during this time

However, at this time the German language borrowed even more from French than it does today. The history of the French-German relationship is marked by mutual hatred and mutual recognition of each others virtues.

I can imagine a radical revanchist movement yes, but no Nazi-like racial theory.
 

BananaJoe

Banned
Were the Nazi racial delusions explicit on Slavs in general?

They sure went totally crazy about Jews and I also realise the plans about near extermination of intellectual Poles and Russians to leave the rest as slave Labour, but other Slavs were readily included in the "German cause" although not as peers.

Anyway, I think we could be much closer to your situation, if we could "create" some situations in 19th century and early 20th century, where Slavs and Germans had a clear common enemy, and where the Slavs had been an obvious help to the Germans. Like the Poles bailing out the Austrians in 1683 before Vienna, but this time against the French.

Could it be the war of 1870 initially going terribly wrong for the Germans, and then some Slavs entering the scene as the Cavalry in the last moment? The problem is however, that by 1870 all Slavs would be included in either Prussia, Russia, Austria or Ottoman Empire.

So we also need an Independent Slav nation of a certain combat weight - Poland - and one created without stepping on too many German toes. Quite a challenge - we certainly need some brilliant dancers here!

Could we have the Poles defect from Napoleon in time, how about just before or during Battle of Leipzig - and be the ones who save Blücher from being wiped out? It still will be a long way before we have Prussia, Austria and Russia agree to give up territory to create an independent Poland, but I suppose both the Prussians and the Austrians in early 19th century were deeply dependent on British subsidies and all could find a reason to not let Russia grow too big. Now, what if we also have Alexander disgrace himself, like being captured by the French at Leipzig, which came close in OTL - and be liberated by Poles! The last, most effective but also very pleasant part of the plan, is having an explicitly attractive Polish girl thoroughly seduce King William Frederic of Prussia, the Crown Prince, the PM and the Queen. :cool::firstimekiss::love::p

General Blücher would prefer a French Grenadier, but I guess there would be plenty available of those after the war.*

*Among contemporaries there was a serious concern over Blücher's mental health. He was so have said to have claimed that he was pregnant and was to give birth to an elephant and that the father was a French Grenadier...:openedeyewink:

I wasn't thinking of Divergences that far back but you proposals definitely sound interesting. Maybe a different kind of racial hierarchy in the late 19th century could do the trick but I'm leaning more towards a change in Hitler's WW1 experience.
 
Getting Hitler to like the Slavs more is harder. He is Austrian so maybe he blames the Hungarians for the troubles. If the Hungarians had treated their countrymen right, the Slavs would have stayed loyal. Because of the Hungarians, the French were able to seduce the Russians with loans to break with Germany. Its all the damn Latins and Hungarians. Or he could get real deep- its the Romanians (who are Latins) who caused all the troubles provoking the Hungarians

There, the Latins are evil and the Slavs were just their unwitting fools. Get rid of the Latins and the Slavs will behave. Something along those lines
 
Hi. I just made an account for a story I want to do and since that story deals with an alternate German Racial Theory that is against French and Romance People at large rather than the Slavs as they did in real life. So I'm wondering,how much was the level of French hatred (Latinphobia?) [Gallophobia, I think - AKoD] In Weimar Germany and Nazi Germany in real life? And what specific events could I use to twist the screws to make such a kind of Racial Theory realistic?

Here is a bit of quasi-evidence. In 1879, Jules Verne published The Begum's Fortune. An Indian queen dies, leaving a great pile of money to two heirs, a French scientist and a German scientist. Both decide to use their legacies to build ideal cities in southern Oregon. The Frenchman builds a beautiful garden city; the German builds a grim industrial fortress and plots the destruction of the French city. The German rants about the racial superiority of Germans, and how inferior and degenerate races such as the French should be eliminated.

Now, Verne was a patriotic Frenchman writing only a few years after the Franco-Prussian War, so he had axes to grind. But he didn't invent this stereotype. There are reasons for jokes about hard-drinking Irishmen and tight-fisted Scots and clever Lebanese; there were reasons for Verne's image of Germans.

Obviously this is not something you can use, but it does suggest that usable events or writings could be found as early as the 1870s. Also, look at the works of Heinrich von Treitschke, who AIUI was among the noisiest German supremacists in the Wilhelmine Empire.

As to what remained of these sentiments after WW I, which is when you're interested in... Idunno. Sorry.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
This anti-French enough for you?

"France is, and remains by far, the most terrible enemy. This people, which is constantly becoming more Negrofied, constitutes...a grim danger for the existence of the European white race...For Germany...the French danger means an obligation to subordinate all considerations of sentiment, and to reach out the hand to those who, threatened as much as we are, will not tolerate...France's drive toward dominion."

I think you can guess the source...

However, his "solution" to the Russian and Polish "problems" was noticeably harsher than towards the French "problem".

Now imagine a reversal of occupation policies between east and west. France is really screwed. The Empire can fight on, but the whole metropolitan population is under the German boot. Harsh occupation can provoke greater partisan resistance, but it can be more easily crushed and contained in west than east.

Same applies if he goes anti-Italian- he can easily occupy northern and central Italy a long time. If he's anti-Romanian, he can genocide them as bad as the Poles.
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
However, his "solution" to the Russian and Polish "problems" was noticeably harsher than towards the French "problem".

Now imagine a reversal of occupation policies between east and west. France is really screwed. The Empire can fight on, but the whole metropolitan population is under the German boot. Harsh occupation can provoke greater partisan resistance, but it can be more easily crushed and contained in west than east.
Where would the Nazis have deported the French in the event of victory in such a TL, though? To Madagascar along with the Jews?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Where would the Nazis have deported the French in the event of victory in such a TL, though? To Madagascar along with the Jews?

Mass graves beneath their feet, as he did with Jews, Gypsies and Polish intelligentsia.
 

BananaJoe

Banned
Where would the Nazis have deported the French in the event of victory in such a TL, though? To Madagascar along with the Jews?


What I am thinking of is the Nazis doing mass killings with the Einstazgruppum like they did in Russia and forced deportings millions upon millions across the Mediterranean Sea to Algeria. It won't be a pretty thing to witness by all means.
 
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