French Habsburgs?

Hello

I have been thinging about what if the Habsburgs hadn't gained Spain but France in stead around the same time, late 1400s early 1500s. Would that even be possible in your opinion and what would be short term and long term results of such an aquisition.

I have had a debate along these lines with some of my friends and one of them claimed Habsburgs would try to make themselves look as resoters of the Charlemanes legacy and would unite Europe preventing British dominant position in the later centuries.
 
The French had no desire to be ruled by foreigners. Distorting the ancient Salic Law, they made a point of excluding the rightful heirs by primogeniture whenever the direct male line became extinct, in favour of the next legitimately born male Frenchman of the blood royal.

However, the extinction of the Valois left the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia von Habsburg as the heiress-general of the Valois-Angoulême and Valois-Orléans branches. Philip II definitely intended to place her on the throne at some point. Her best shot would have been to marry a male Frenchman who was Catholic and had Valois blood; unfortunately, Henri IV's conversion to Catholicism removed the chief impediment to his assuming the throne. If he had remained Huguenot, then *perhaps* Isabella and her husband could have succeeded.
 

archaeogeek

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The French had no desire to be ruled by foreigners. Distorting the ancient Salic Law, they made a point of excluding the rightful heirs by primogeniture whenever the direct male line became extinct, in favour of the next legitimately born male Frenchman of the blood royal.

However, the extinction of the Valois left the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia von Habsburg as the heiress-general of the Valois-Angoulême and Valois-Orléans branches. Philip II definitely intended to place her on the throne at some point. Her best shot would have been to marry a male Frenchman who was Catholic and had Valois blood; unfortunately, Henri IV's conversion to Catholicism removed the chief impediment to his assuming the throne. If he had remained Huguenot, then *perhaps* Isabella and her husband could have succeeded.

The Bourbons were arguably foreign - the connétable had defected to the empire and the house of Albret was ruling another country just decades before ;)
(IIRC this argument was advanced by the Guise when people pointed out that they were german and working for the king of spain :p )
 
The Bourbons were arguably foreign - the connétable had defected to the empire and the house of Albret was ruling another country just decades before ;)
(IIRC this argument was advanced by the Guise when people pointed out that they were german and working for the king of spain :p )

:p

Well, the Bourbons in male line are Capetians (French), whilst the Guise in male line are Lorrainers (German/Dutch). The Duke of Bourbon who defected to the Empire was a distant cousin to Henri IV, since he was from the junior Vendôme branch.
Henri's father was irrefutably French and his grandmother was Marguerite d'Angoulême, only his grandfather was King of Navarre but even so, still more French than Spanish. ;):D
 
If the Valois-Burgundy line somehow manages to be next in line to the French throne, while everything with Charles the Bold goes the same as OTL, there could be a king with Habsburg blood on the French throne.

Unless they do another succession war.
 
Arguably, the Habsburgs would've been French had they not inherited Spain. They held the Imperial legacy of the empire but also the legacy of the Valois House of Burgundy. Philip the Fair was culturally Burgundian and spoke French, as was Charles V. In any timeline where the Habsburgs do not gain Spain, they might presumably rule the empire from the Low Countries and maintain the culture of their Burgudian ancestors, with they and their court speaking French.
 
Arguably, the Habsburgs would've been French had they not inherited Spain. They held the Imperial legacy of the empire but also the legacy of the Valois House of Burgundy. Philip the Fair was culturally Burgundian and spoke French, as was Charles V. In any timeline where the Habsburgs do not gain Spain, they might presumably rule the empire from the Low Countries and maintain the culture of their Burgudian ancestors, with they and their court speaking French.

And that's exactly what I did. With a Kingdom of Burgundy as the royal title for the Habsburgs, since they don't get Bohemia in my TL. :D
 
And that's exactly what I did. With a Kingdom of Burgundy as the royal title for the Habsburgs, since they don't get Bohemia in my TL. :D

Yep, my TL features Charles V as Emperor ruling from the Low Countries, while Ferdinand receives the Austrian inheritance with Bohemia and a rump Hungary added to it. The elder line in the Netherlands remains culturally Burgundian and French speaking.
 
I had a mini-TL wherein the Habsburgs ascended to Burgundy. Then Burgundy was united with France via a male-line succession to the French throne after the collapse of the main Valois branch. A cadet branch of the Habsburgs became rulers in Germany, but turned Protestant and eventually was overtaken by the Wittelsbachs. Spain goes Habsburg in the early 1500's following a deal that split the Burgundian line into Spanish and French lines. What in OTL was the Spanish Habsburgs become the French line, and the OTL Austrian ones became the Spanish line. The French one eventually collapsed and was replaced by a native French claimant; the Spanish one continues strong, reconquering Greece and Crete in the 1700's. Then a Gamma Ray Burst happened and everyone died.

It was nice.
 
I had a mini-TL wherein the Habsburgs ascended to Burgundy. Then Burgundy was united with France via a male-line succession to the French throne after the collapse of the main Valois branch. A cadet branch of the Habsburgs became rulers in Germany, but turned Protestant and eventually was overtaken by the Wittelsbachs. Spain goes Habsburg in the early 1500's following a deal that split the Burgundian line into Spanish and French lines. What in OTL was the Spanish Habsburgs become the French line, and the OTL Austrian ones became the Spanish line. The French one eventually collapsed and was replaced by a native French claimant; the Spanish one continues strong, reconquering Greece and Crete in the 1700's. Then a Gamma Ray Burst happened and everyone died.

It was nice.
I remember that one, one of my favorite of your mini TLs.
 
I don't think that the Haspburg could have inherited the French throne.

For one, there is the French Salic Law : it excluded every female and their bloodline from the succession. This had been done first in 1316, after the death of Louis X and his posthumous son John I, to prevent Joan of Navarra to succeed the crown as they were doubts on her legitimacy and also fear she could have married a foreign prince. That's how Philip V, Louis X's brother, got the crown.
Since Philip V died in 1322 without any male heir, the succession went to his brother Charles IV who in turned died in 1328 without any male heir. That's when Isabella of France, mother of Edward III, tried to assert her sons' rights to the crown saying that, though she herself couldn't inherit, her son could as he was male. The French didn't want an English King on the French throne and so the crown went to Philip VI, a nephew of Philip IV and a 1st cousin of Charles IV.
There is also a technical fact : some of the daughters of Louis X, Philip V and Charles IV had married and has sons themselves who would have had more legitimacy than Edward III but who could also have claimed to have been usurped French Kingship under the rules of Philip V or Charles IV (a claim that happened OTL with Charles II of Navarra, the son of Joan and her cousin Philip of Evreux and thus the grandson of Louis X). It would have ended in quite a mess...

When I learned about Philip II of Spain's attempt to have his daughter Isabella as Queen of France, I was surprised as, to me, it wouldn't have been possible as it violated the French Successoral law. I'm not sure he had any chance to suceed, even with brutal force. This might have lead to a "Hundred Years War" between France and Spain, but I don't think it would have resulted in Isabella being crowned Queen, or at least there would have been a rival and legitimate King for the French (Henri IV).

Second, the Hapsburg aren't a male branch descending from the Capetians, like the Valois and the Bourbons were. They do have French blood in their veins since Maximilian I had married Mary of Burgundy, daughter of the Duke of Burgundy Charles the Bold, who himself was a descendant of the French King John II. Yet, it is a female bloodline and thus excludes the Hapsburg from the Succession.
Besides, even if the Hapsburg were male-related to the Capetians, they would come after the other French Branches. The Valois were descendants of Philip IV of France's brother, Charles of Valois, meaning there bloodline descends from Philip III. As for the Bourbons, they were descendants of Robert of Clermont, one of Louis IX/Saint Louis's son (the youngest if I remember correctly). Unless the Hapsburgs could prove to have a stronger blood link to the Capetians than any other candidates, they wouldn't get the throne.

Third and last, the French didn't wish for Foreign rulers. That's why we got the Hundred Years' War : because Edward III of England could have claimed the French throne, the nobles choosed to ensure Salic Law by forbidding women and their bloodlines to succeed the French crown. The Haspburg are partially French since they descend from Charles the Bold but they would look nothing but German (or Spanish, depends on the candidate) to the French people.
 
Was the French successoral law ever set down officially? Or was it just invoked and distorted as occassions arose?

If not, religious concerns could have allowed Isabella and a French husband to succeed instead of Henri IV.
If yes, religious concerns could have allowed for the law to be revoked (either by Pope/Church or the Parlément) allowing for Isabella and a French husband to succeed.

I believe an agreement was reached, towards the end of the Valois era, that if the male Capetian line should ever become extinct, the Dukes of Lorraine (and the Guise-Lorraine) should inherit the throne. Not sure but I believe the Lorrainers were Carolingians in the male line ?

I believe the Portuguese Avis were also male line Capetians, despite a break in legitimacy (John I was base-born).
 
Velasco said:
Was the French successoral law ever set down officially? Or was it just invoked and distorted as occassions arose?

It became official in 1357, under Philip VI's rule. It was done to strenghten the Valois' claims to the crown of France.

Velasco said:
If not, religious concerns could have allowed Isabella and a French husband to succeed instead of Henri IV.
If yes, religious concerns could have allowed for the law to be revoked (either by Pope/Church or the Parlément) allowing for Isabella and a French husband to succeed.

Would it really have been that simple? I have doubts.

Velasco said:
I believe an agreement was reached, towards the end of the Valois era, that if the male Capetian line should ever become extinct, the Dukes of Lorraine (and the Guise-Lorraine) should inherit the throne. Not sure but I believe the Lorrainers were Carolingians in the male line ?

I believe the Portuguese Avis were also male line Capetians, despite a break in legitimacy (John I was base-born).

I don't know if such an agreement did exist, but it is probable since the Guise had their eyes on the French crown around that time...
As for the fact that Lorrainers are descendants of Carolingians, the answer is probably yes. The Dukes of Lorraine descend from King Charles of Lorraine, a brother to King Lothar of France (the father of the last Carolingian King of France, Louis V). Charles of Lorraine could have inherited the crown after Louis V's death, but the French peers didn't liked him and choosed Hugh Capet.
As for the question of if they descend of a male line, meaning a transmission from father to son only, I am not sure : there are six-seven centuries between Charles of Lorraine and the House of Guise.

As for the House of Aviz, it is indeed related to the Capetians. They are a bastard cadet branch of the First House of Burgundy*.
The youngest son of Robert II of France, Robert, became Duke of Burgundy under the name Robert I. Robert I had a son named Henry who died two years prior his father. However, Henry of Burgundy had three sons : Hugh I of Burgundy, who succeeded Robert I, Odo I of Burgundy, who succeeded his brother, and Henry, who became Count of Portugal.
Henry of Portugal's son is Alfonso I, the first king of Portugal. From him descended the Kings of Portugal and, later, the House of Aviz. However, the Aviz were a bastard line of the original Portuguese Royal House.

*There were two Houses of Burgundy. The first one started with Robert I of Burgundy and died with Philip I of Burgundy in 1361.
The Second House of Burgundy began in 1364 when Philip II the Bold, youngest son of King John II of France, became Duke of Burgundy. That house ended with Charles the Bold in 1477, but the successoral rights of Burgundy were fought over between the Hapsburgs and the Valois.
 
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