French-German war in 1894/1896

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Deleted member 143920

What if the Dreyfus affair began a war between France and Germany in 1894/1896. Alfred Dreyfus was an alsatian in the French army and many thought he was a German spy. He was wrongly accused and exiled. What if Germany reacted and declared war. What would happen in the war? If you want the full story here is the link
 
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Why would Germany care that way about Dreyfus? Ignoring anti-Semitism in Germany and the likely belief that any Alsatian who left for France was a traitor, the domestic political controversy in France did not displease many, IIRC.
 

Deleted member 143920

Why would Germany care that way about Dreyfus? Ignoring anti-Semitism in Germany and the likely belief that any Alsatian who left for France was a traitor, the domestic political controversy in France did not displease many, IIRC.

Technically alsatians are germans and the fact he was wrongly accused gave me the idea of a war. This is alternate history after all
 
Technically alsatians are germans and the fact he was wrongly accused gave me the idea of a war. This is alternate history after all
Not all the Alsatians were Germans. The proof Dreyfus felt French and never spied for Germany. Moreover, do you really see the German Empire of the time going to war to "save a Jewish Alsatian, a French officer who fled his region annexed by the Empire who did not feel German"?
 

Deleted member 143920

Not all the Alsatians were Germans. The proof Dreyfus felt French and never spied for Germany. Moreover, do you really see the German Empire of the time going to war to "save a Jewish Alsatian, a French officer who fled his region annexed by the Empire who did not feel German"?

I know the thread is unrealistic, but I would like to know what the scenario and effects of the war be like if it actually happened, not if it is possible. As I said this is alternate history.
 
I know the thread is unrealistic, but I would like to know what the scenario and effects of the war be like if it actually happened, not if it is possible. As I said this is alternate history.
If Germany were to go to war with France at that time it would not be for the Dreyfus affair (unless they became champions in the fight against anti-Semitism, ASB).
If you want to theorize about a conflict of that time you need another Casus Belli for Germany other than Dreyfus himself.
For example one could imagine the French army not accusing Dreyfus and discovering Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy from the beginning. The latter fled to Germany and France demanded his extradition for high treason. Germany refuses and German and French soldiers during a show of force at the border cling to him. The conflict between Germany and France breaks out.

Edit: Yes, it's alternative history. But if you want to make unrealistic or completely impossible scenarios go to the forum "Alein space bat".
 
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For the Germans to claim as someone German someone who belonged to a suspect religious minority who knowingly renounced his homeland to serve in an enemy's military, you would need to change things interestingly. You would need to make Germany much more liberal, to have German Jews be seen as no more suspect because of their religion than German Catholics. (Not that this would be easy in the era of the Kulturkampf.) You would also need to make Germany less liberal in other ways, to have the status of German citizenship be defined by ancestry, and to have this be something that cannot be renounced.

Was there any ideology at the time that would encompass this?
 
I feel like there would be a better chance that the French could wind up declaring war on the Germans rather than the Germans declaring war. Say the French rattle their sabers enough that during a border clash accidentally turns hot or something. But that's just guessing on my end
 
Yeah i doubt germany cared that much those expies, you need something mayor, like a border incident in Eltass-Lothrigen, something would make Franco-german war round 2..
 
Technically alsatians are germans and the fact he was wrongly accused gave me the idea of a war. This is alternate history after all

Be careful with this language . . . let's just say that Alsatians are Alsatians and leave it that.

Regardless the discrimination against Dreyfus was not (by all evidence) due to his region of birth but his Jewish religion. (Dreyfus was not exiled, it was far worse - he was sentenced to Devil's Island, the "dry guillotine".)

If there is war, presumably Russia is involved as the Franco-Russian alliance had just been established.
 
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The Germans responded the only way they could historically: metaphorically sitting back and eating the popcorn while France tore itself to bits. You'd have to implicate the actual spy from the outset, Eszterhazy, because the Germans, particularly then, are not oing to war for the sake of a Jew, particularly one that was not actually a German asset.
 
The Germans responded the only way they could historically: metaphorically sitting back and eating the popcorn while France tore itself to bits. You'd have to implicate the actual spy from the outset, Eszterhazy, because the Germans, particularly then, are not oing to war for the sake of a Jew, particularly one that was not actually a German asset.
Neither for Eszterhazy anyway
 

Deleted member 143920

If Germany were to go to war with France at that time it would not be for the Dreyfus affair.

If you want to theorize about a conflict of that time you need another Casus Belli for Germany other than Dreyfus himself.
For example one could imagine the French army not accusing Dreyfus and discovering Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy from the beginning. The latter fled to Germany and France demanded his extradition for high treason. Germany refuses and German and French soldiers during a show of force at the border cling to him. The conflict between Germany and France breaks out.

That wouldn't be a bad thread idea. EDIT: I have now made a thread about it. It's called WW1 in 1894/1895
 
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Be careful with this language . . . let's just say that Alsatians are Alsatians and leave it that.

Regardless the discrimination against Dreyfus was not (by all evidence) due to his region of birth but his Jewish religion. (Dreyfus was not exiled, it was far worse - he was sentenced to Devil's Island, the "dry guillotine".)

If there is war, presumably Russia is involved as the Franco-Russian alliance had just been established.
Yes, Dreyfus was persecuted due to his religion and the proposed casus belli is not realistic (sorry) but time frame of the OP means that Russia may get involved: the Reinsurance Treaty between Germany and Russia lapsed in 1890 but even within that treaty Russia would stay neutral only if France attacked Germany. Franco-Russian convention of 1892 (and the later agreements) provided for mutual military aid in the event of a German attack.

So, presumably, Russia could, in theory, remain neutral if France decides to attack Germany but this scenario looks almost ASB taking into an account that the whole French-Russian rapprochement was due to the fact that France was afraid of Germany (and ready to arrange for the massive loans to Russia as a payment for security). Now, if Russia is getting involved, so does AH, etc. and you have an earlier version of wwi. On a "good side" (for the French) there is no Schliffen Plan but on a "bad side" Schliffen is a head of the German General Staff and the Russian army is not ready for a major war: "The army's share of the budget fell from 30% to 18% in 1881–1902. By 1904 Russia was spending 57% and 63% of what Germany and Austria-Hungary were spending on each soldier, respectively. Army morale was broken by crushing over 1500 protests from 1883 to 1903. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russian_Army#cite_note-35
 
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If Germany were to go to war with France at that time it would not be for the Dreyfus affair (unless they became champions in the fight against anti-Semitism, ASB).
If you want to theorize about a conflict of that time you need another Casus Belli for Germany other than Dreyfus himself.
For example one could imagine the French army not accusing Dreyfus and discovering Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy from the beginning. The latter fled to Germany and France demanded his extradition for high treason. Germany refuses and German and French soldiers during a show of force at the border cling to him. The conflict between Germany and France breaks out.

Edit: Yes, it's alternative history. But if you want to make unrealistic or completely impossible scenarios go to the forum "Alein space bat".
Interesting scenario but still rather unlikely even putting aside the fact that in OTL Esterhazy was put on a trial in 1898 and found not guilty. Even if he is found guilty and fled to Germany, the war hardly could be started over a single spy who is a French national. Extradition agreements were not common and I’m not sure that one existed between France and Germany. Then, the most improbable part is that France is provoking a war: this would take Russia off the hook because the existing treaty of a mutual defense was valid only in the case of a German attack. France could not fight Germany alone and 5his ruins the whole premise of her being initiator of the war.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
The Germans responded the only way they could historically: metaphorically sitting back and eating the popcorn while France tore itself to bits. You'd have to implicate the actual spy from the outset, Eszterhazy, because the Germans, particularly then, are not oing to war for the sake of a Jew, particularly one that was not actually a German asset.
French strategies pre-Joffre were completely different.
 
Interesting scenario but still rather unlikely even putting aside the fact that in OTL Esterhazy was put on a trial in 1898 and found not guilty. Even if he is found guilty and fled to Germany, the war hardly could be started over a single spy who is a French national. Extradition agreements were not common and I’m not sure that one existed between France and Germany. Then, the most improbable part is that France is provoking a war: this would take Russia off the hook because the existing treaty of a mutual defense was valid only in the case of a German attack. France could not fight Germany alone and 5his ruins the whole premise of her being initiator of the war.
I did this scenario in thirty seconds, so yes, there must be a lot of loopholes.
But one could imagine that Esterhazy fleeing to Germany would cause overexcitement on both sides and that the soldiers at the border would have fun insulting each other. Then a warmer-blooded German officer thought it was a good idea to cross the border to send a "message" to the French. (🤪).
Although Esterhazy is the "beginning of the fuse" the conflict will probably come back to the Alsace-Lorraine dispute and if, as I wrote above, Germany is seen as the aggressor, Russia could join France with less difficulty.
Edit: one could imagine a total absence of the Dreyfus affair, more competent and not antisemitic officers discover Esterhazy at the beginning of their investigation and never pay attention to Dreyfus.
 
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lthough Esterhazy is the "beginning of the fuse" the conflict will probably come back to the Alsace-Lorraine dispute and if, as I wrote above, Germany is seen as the aggressor, Russia could join France with less difficulty.
ASB, that is a strech make rubber look rigid
 
ASB, that is a strech make rubber look rigid
???
It's a coded message that I don't understand (my mother tongue is French) ?
And I don't see why my script is ASB. It can be considered quite improbable but I think it's still plausible. I find it just as ASB as the death of an Austrian archduke in Serbia provoking a 4-year murderous conflict all over the world.
 
???
It's a coded message that I don't understand (my mother tongue is French) ?
And I don't see why my script is ASB. It can be considered quite improbable but I think it's still plausible. I find it just as ASB as the death of an Austrian archduke in Serbia provoking a 4-year murderous conflict all over the world.
As Mark twain say: The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction must make sense. And this not make sense...but now make sense you being french, wanting to be the victim, as say before that is a very ASB strech to happen
 
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