French Fascists, a certain marine mammal, & WWII

[DMA]

What if, in the late 1930s, the French Fascists came to power. Then, when Hitler invaded Poland, France stayed out of it & Britain was left alone to stand against Germany. If (& when) Britain then declared war on Germany, due to Hitler’s Poland adventure, France sided with Germany. So Britain soon found itself at war with both Germany & France.

Consequentially, how does this effect WWII? What of the Mediterranean Theatre? Or North Africa? Or Eastern Europe?

And, in particular, what of our beloved Operation Marine Mammal? Now that Germany has access to a rather large combined naval fleet, not to mention a combined air force, are the days of Royal Navy & RAF dominance soon over? Could this make the difference between Sealion being called off, attempted but fail, or is Sealion ultimately successful?

Anything else?

 

[Elidor]

What's the French word for Sealion?

 

[DMA]

What's the French word for Sealion?

Otarie

 

[JimmyJimJam]

In this case i think we would end up with an ultra interventionist US, who would defeat japan in the 30s. Following the close ties that would come with a unified nationalist china as a result, you would see a massive d-day style landing in france, of british forces assisted by their american minor allies. both backed up by millions of chinese grateful for the west's help against japan.

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

But why?

 

[arctic warrior]

What if, in the late 1930s, the French Fascists came to power. Then, when Hitler invaded Poland, France stayed out of it & Britain was left alone to stand against Germany. If (& when) Britain then declared war on Germany, due to Hitler’s Poland adventure, France sided with Germany. So Britain soon found itself at war with both Germany & France.

Consequentially, how does this effect WWII? What of the Mediterranean Theatre? Or North Africa? Or Eastern Europe?
Anything else?

Would certainly bring some thoughts to Hitler's mind about beating or not beating his WWI adversary!
Would Hitler have the mind to re-saddle his horse for an all-out Eastern "Crusade" and why would the French Fascists go along for sinking Albion? Was it part of their programme? (I'm less than well versed in French Fascism and its objectives pre-WWII)

 

[fhaessig]

The only possible PoD for french Fascism is in, I think.

Have De La Rocque replaced by another leader less interested in following the law and the Croix de Feu take the french parliament. This could possibly lead to a coup and gradual takeover.

The problem is that, from there on, you have huge butterflies.

Likely intervention in the spanish civil war.

Different rearmament program.

No Munich.... No treaty with Poland...

Likely, WWII is going to be western europe against communism, with Uk and USA sitting this out. Japan will stay mired in China and may attack the soviets for a part of the loot after Moscow falls. ( Netherlands wouldn't dream of not selling fuel to an axis ally as it won't have been invaded )

 

[Karlos]

Even if both had fascists regimes, France and Germany would still be rivals. Too many unresolved issues,(Alsace), memories of WWI, and simple competition for beign the main continental power. In this TTL, is more probable a french-german war, with the UK and the soviets just watching and Mussolni waiting to bet on the winner's side.

 

[arctic warrior]

The only possible PoD for french Fascism is in, I think.

Have De La Rocque replaced by another leader less interested in following the law and the Croix de Feu take the french parliament. This could possibly lead to a coup and gradual takeover.

The problem is that, from there on, you have huge butterflies.

Likely intervention in the spanish civil war.

Different rearmament program.

No Munich.... No treaty with Poland...

Likely, WWII is going to be western europe against communism, with Uk and USA sitting this out. Japan will stay mired in China and may attack the soviets for a part of the loot after Moscow falls. ( Netherlands wouldn't dream of not selling fuel to an axis ally as it won't have been invaded )

I think you left out a year in the first sentence.

Even if both had fascists regimes, France and Germany would still be rivals. Too many unresolved issues,(Alsace), memories of WWI, and simple competition for beign the main continental power. In this TTL, is more probable a french-german war, with the UK and the soviets just watching and Mussolni waiting to bet on the winner's side.

I agree with the general line of you - with facist regimes being usually VERY nationalistic I have difficulty in seeing the French joining up with Hitler except against some percieved common enemy like the Soviet Union.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The only possible PoD for french Fascism is in, I think.

Have De La Rocque replaced by another leader less interested in following the law and the Croix de Feu take the french parliament. This could possibly lead to a coup and gradual takeover.

The problem is that, from there on, you have huge butterflies.

Likely intervention in the spanish civil war.

Different rearmament program.

No Munich.... No treaty with Poland...

Likely, WWII is going to be western europe against communism, with Uk and USA sitting this out. Japan will stay mired in China and may attack the soviets for a part of the loot after Moscow falls. ( Netherlands wouldn't dream of not selling fuel to an axis ally as it won't have been invaded )

Yes, I was going to say that I couldn't see why on Earth Chamberlain would give a guarantee to Poland if France was now to be counted in the potential enemy camp

It would depend on when French fascism emerges as the power in Paris as to what has happened before.

It also throws up a possible three-way split between Germany, France and Italy for leadership, and the potential for the latter two to combine rather than a Rome-Berlin axis

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf

Yes, I was going to say that I couldn't see why on Earth Chamberlain would give a guarantee to Poland if France was now to be counted in the potential enemy camp
It would depend on when French fascism emerges as the power in Paris as to what has happened before.
It also throws up a possible three-way split between Germany, France and Italy for leadership, and the potential for the latter two to combine rather than a Rome-Berlin axis

I agree. France and Italy had actually no reason to fight each other, while Italy may heve been affraid Hitler would be interested in Italian part of Tirol, especially after Anschluss. Meanwhile, France and Germany were bitter enemies: especially Germans dreamed about revenge for 1918 and Treaty of Versailles. OTOH, Mussolini wasn't that eager to fight an enemy who wasn't outnumbered or outgunned. So France might have had Italian political and perhaps economical support, but no direct military assisstance.
Hitler had also another problem. Would French fascists have looked calmly at Germany's rearmament? I have some doubts. IOTL France was practically pacifist, so it did nothing. Fascists are by definition not pacifist. France might actually have started the war in 1936 over Rhine region. But assume they waited till 1938 and then decided to protect Czechoslovakia - not because they loved the Czechs, but because they hated Germans. Any French action against Germany would have had automatically Polish support (I believe fascists France would still have been Polish ally - they had common enemy) and in such case Germany is in big trouble. French Army pushes from west, rolling over Siegfried Line; Czechoslovakia holds its mountain fortification and sends a lot of weapons to Poland. Poland hits hard Silesia and East Prussia - even if Germans manage to stop them, Poles engage a significant part of Wehrmacht, so French troops have easier job.
In that case Germany is defeated in less than a year: with much weaker Wehrmacht, without Czechoslovakian industry and weapons (especially tanks) Germany is too weak to fight on two fronts. If Germany doesn't surrender first, Poles and French meet in Berlin, in last minute Mussolini invades Tirol to get something for himself.

 

[Broz]

if any form of fashist party came to rule france in the 1930 one of the first things theyd do is invest heavily in military industry and tehnology
basically theyd do the same as hitler and musolini did, olnly there could be an even bigger military buildup as france actually had colonies and an economy that was still stronger than post war germany, till hitler got hold of it
so by 1940 french army would be huge, more tanks more airplains more artillery, more propaganda, more warmongering, maybe theyd ewen start the war
and with hitler in power the french fashists would have the perfect motivation to arm themselwes to the teath and beyond, and indoctrinate the population till they start spontaneously burning copies of hegel on german borders
no way france and germany would be friendly let alone allied, germany wanted french africa, thats basically what WWI was all about
also the rise of fashism in france would mean franco would rely on paris rather than germany to provide arms and funds, and there is a possibility of mussolini becoming closer to the french fashists than to hitler, as he was seweral times quoted;"non my piace quell tizzio" or rather i dont like that guy
one way or the other this could wery well start a trend in western politics that many other countries may follow, what with the treath of comunism
once the war would start there is little posibility of france and germany not going to total war and beating each other into a pile of dead fashist turds and broken metal
then england invades and the soviets take most of eastern europe and thats that
italy might as well be neutral and jump in at the last moment to get the bigest part of africa possible

more or less its a rerun of WWI olnly worse

 

[fhaessig]

I think you left out a year in the first sentence.

.

True. Sorry.

the year is 1934.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

How would any credible French party destroy her entire system of alliances in Eastern Europe AND the British alliance, all to gain favor with a nation widely hated throughout France?

 

[Vault-Scope]

germany wanted french africa, thats basically what WWI was all about

 

[Jape]

ROFL

 

[strangeland]

Even if both had fascists regimes, France and Germany would still be rivals. Too many unresolved issues,(Alsace), memories of WWI, and simple competition for beign the main continental power. In this TTL, is more probable a french-german war, with the UK and the soviets just watching and Mussolni waiting to bet on the winner's side.

yes. thank you. Just because two states have similar ideologies doesn't mean they'll get along in international affairs: in fact it may actually prompt them to MORE rivalry, especially if relations were bad to begin with. (see: Sino-Soviet split, Baathist Iraq vs Baathist Syria, etc)

 

[Fenwick]

Can I ask why France and Germany are even becoming allies? I mean the POD seems interesting, but why does England still back Poland without its long standign ally France in the mix? Why does a nation who for decades has been hating Germany suddenly side with them? Italy and Germany did not get along at first. In fact Mussolini tried to make a coalition against the Nazi's before they become buddies.

So you'd need a way for the French to be courted by and won over by the Nazi's. At the same time you need to have a situation in which the UK would still back Poland abstent a mainland European ally to help them with.