French Claim in Early War of Spanish Succession?

In a TL where an early War of Spanish Succession takes place and Charles II dies early, how does Louis XIV press his claims? Say around the 1670s.

Prince Louis is born at this point, but still too young to rule, so does he claim on behalf of his son, or on behalf of his wife Maria Theresa of Spain?

It doesn't make much different in the long run at this point but it just depends whose head the crown is planned to be put on.
 
Assuming the inheritance of the Spanish Crowns is maintained as the same probably his wife until his son is of age.
Expect a lot of pressure for this to devolve onto any siblings
 
Assuming the inheritance of the Spanish Crowns is maintained as the same probably his wife until his son is of age.
Expect a lot of pressure for this to devolve onto any siblings

Problem is in this TL Louis has yet to have any siblings.

I realise Maria Theresa of Spain would be in charge - But the question is she Regent on behalf of her son, or is she Queen in her own right?

I suppose it makes a difference if she has more children. If shes Queen then power can devolve onto someone else but if it is the son crowned King then he would either be King of France-Spain or King of Spain with King of France devolving elsewhere.
 
Problem is in this TL Louis has yet to have any siblings.

I realise Maria Theresa of Spain would be in charge - But the question is she Regent on behalf of her son, or is she Queen in her own right?

I suppose it makes a difference if she has more children. If shes Queen then power can devolve onto someone else but if it is the son crowned King then he would either be King of France-Spain or King of Spain with King of France devolving elsewhere.

First, Maria Teresa becomes queen in her own right, since Spain had no problem with a female monarch, however, how much of the cortes would be willing to see Spain and France's crown end up on the same heads is debatable. Also, the Bourbons are still disputing the legality of Felipe V's waiving of his rights of inheritance to France, since those rights theoretically CANNOT be waived, therefore the French ceown is not devolving onto the house of Orléans unless the main line dies without male heirs.

Since this is 1670, Margarita Teresa, Holy Roman Empress is still alive. Unlike France which is a hereditary monarchy, the thrones the Habsburgs hold are elective (at least in theory) so if she has a surviving son before she dies, he can be desig nated heir to Spain, and a son for Leopold I from a later marriage becomes heir to the purple, (as is happening in Apollinis et Dianae at the moment). If she only has (a) daughter(s), then it solves the problem. The daughter becomes queen of Spain et al, and a son from a later marriage will be emperor.

Then, in a move out of left field, the Cortes might decide to avoid foreign entanglement and elect D. Juan José, Felipe IV's eldest bastard son as king. Not saying it will happen, but Iberia has both installed bastards as king (Joao I of Portugal) and avoided closer lines of succession (de la Cerdas, la Beltraneja, Violante of Aragon, duchesse d'Anjou) before.
 
First, Maria Teresa becomes queen in her own right, since Spain had no problem with a female monarch, however, how much of the cortes would be willing to see Spain and France's crown end up on the same heads is debatable. Also, the Bourbons are still disputing the legality of Felipe V's waiving of his rights of inheritance to France, since those rights theoretically CANNOT be waived, therefore the French ceown is not devolving onto the house of Orléans unless the main line dies without male heirs.

Since this is 1670, Margarita Teresa, Holy Roman Empress is still alive. Unlike France which is a hereditary monarchy, the thrones the Habsburgs hold are elective (at least in theory) so if she has a surviving son before she dies, he can be desig nated heir to Spain, and a son for Leopold I from a later marriage becomes heir to the purple, (as is happening in Apollinis et Dianae at the moment). If she only has (a) daughter(s), then it solves the problem. The daughter becomes queen of Spain et al, and a son from a later marriage will be emperor.

Then, in a move out of left field, the Cortes might decide to avoid foreign entanglement and elect D. Juan José, Felipe IV's eldest bastard son as king. Not saying it will happen, but Iberia has both installed bastards as king (Joao I of Portugal) and avoided closer lines of succession (de la Cerdas, la Beltraneja, Violante of Aragon, duchesse d'Anjou) before.

Well I realise I said 1670... Looking back through my document its actually 1667 when Philip IV dies. The reason its a problem is that Margarita Teresa is still underaged when war breaks out and not actually married to Leopold I at this point. On the Austrian side Philip IV leaves the crown to Leopold I (I believe this is what happened OTL?) or am I getting confused.

And uhh... John of Austria is dead, killed in the Portuguese Restoration War in this TL so he isn't an option.

Louis XIV starts by merely pressing a handful of claims ALA the War of Devolution however Leopold has himself crowned King of Spain to try and get all the marbles and the entire thing boils over, with Spain divided between the Pro-Hapsburgs and the Pro-French (given the recent defeats including the Portuguese Restoration War Hapsburg feeling isn't at a high at the moment).

I suppose it makes more sense if the French put forward Maria Teresa as Queen with the possibility of separate children gaining the crowns of Spain and France...
 
In this scenario, I'll say go ahead and crown Maria Teresa queen for the following reasons:

  • According to the Spanish succession laws then in place, she's the legitimate heir anyway.
  • It will buy time for the major European powers to find a way to appease the Austrian Habsburgs if she dies, and the Grand Dauphin is the only surviving direct heir. This all can be solved however if any of her other children survive until adulthood.

Including some provisions like no imposing Salic Law on Spain and clearing indicating the Bourbon-Orleans as the heirs to the French throne if the main Bourbon line dies out will also avoid some issues later down the line.
 
Well I realise I said 1670... Looking back through my document its actually 1667 when Philip IV dies. The reason its a problem is that Margarita Teresa is still underaged when war breaks out and not actually married to Leopold I at this point. On the Austrian side Philip IV leaves the crown to Leopold I (I believe this is what happened OTL?) or am I getting confused.

And uhh... John of Austria is dead, killed in the Portuguese Restoration War in this TL so he isn't an option.

Louis XIV starts by merely pressing a handful of claims ALA the War of Devolution however Leopold has himself crowned King of Spain to try and get all the marbles and the entire thing boils over, with Spain divided between the Pro-Hapsburgs and the Pro-French (given the recent defeats including the Portuguese Restoration War Hapsburg feeling isn't at a high at the moment).

I suppose it makes more sense if the French put forward Maria Teresa as Queen with the possibility of separate children gaining the crowns of Spain and France...

Well, if Margarita Teresa is still unmarried, a better bridegroom for her might be Leopold's younger half-brother, Karl Josef (IDK if he's still alive in your idea). It would mean that there is no future union for the crowns of Spain and the Empire on the cards. Although, it leaves Leopold one bride short.
 
Well, if Margarita Teresa is still unmarried, a better bridegroom for her might be Leopold's younger half-brother, Karl Josef (IDK if he's still alive in your idea). It would mean that there is no future union for the crowns of Spain and the Empire on the cards. Although, it leaves Leopold one bride short.


Yeah no. In 1670 Margaret Theresa was already Empress. So if France respects Felipe IVs will, then she'll be Queen Regnant, though France will probably demand some territory in return, either in Italy or the Spanish Netherlands. If not, then Maria Theresa will be Spains monarch. France is stronger then the Habsburgs militarily, economically, and politically, so they can easily take control of Spain proper. England would remain neutral or side with France, the Netherlands army at this point is second rate (the Dutch army didn't modernize until the Franco-Dutch war), and Portugal sure as hell won't side the the Habsburgs. Austria would be in no place to oppose France on her own. Really this would be the best opportunity for France to take the entire Spanish empire for their dynasty.
 
Yeah no. In 1670 Margaret Theresa was already Empress. So if France respects Felipe IVs will, then she'll be Queen Regnant, though France will probably demand some territory in return, either in Italy or the Spanish Netherlands. If not, then Maria Theresa will be Spains monarch. France is stronger then the Habsburgs militarily, economically, and politically, so they can easily take control of Spain proper. England would remain neutral or side with France, the Netherlands army at this point is second rate (the Dutch army didn't modernize until the Franco-Dutch war), and Portugal sure as hell won't side the the Habsburgs. Austria would be in no place to oppose France on her own. Really this would be the best opportunity for France to take the entire Spanish empire for their dynasty.

In my TL I have England siding with the HRE as the Commonwealth is still in power (in the pocket of the military) and they can't tolerate a French dominated coastline. Plus the additional colonies will sky rocket France's power and the Commonwealth/Protectorate won't stand for that.

Dutch are neutral. Sweden is part of the Triple Alliance and therefore against France but Louis XIV signed a secret pact with Denmark-Norway promising the return of the Scania lands in exchange for a defensive alliance if Sweden declares war, so Denmark-Norway is a French ally.
 
In my TL I have England siding with the HRE as the Commonwealth is still in power (in the pocket of the military) and they can't tolerate a French dominated coastline. Plus the additional colonies will sky rocket France's power and the Commonwealth/Protectorate won't stand for that.

Dutch are neutral. Sweden is part of the Triple Alliance and therefore against France but Louis XIV signed a secret pact with Denmark-Norway promising the return of the Scania lands in exchange for a defensive alliance if Sweden declares war, so Denmark-Norway is a French ally.

The Dutch wouldn't remain neutral. They may have hated having the Spanish on their borders, but by this point they were weak. Having France, one of the most powerful nations in Europe, right on their borders would freak the Dutch leadership out. Look at the War of Devolution. England and the Netherlands had just finished a slugging match, but the Dutch still signed on to the Triple alliance with them and Sweden to keep France from taking the entire Spanish Netherlands. England being a "republic" won't change Dutch attitudes.
 
The Dutch wouldn't remain neutral. They may have hated having the Spanish on their borders, but by this point they were weak. Having France, one of the most powerful nations in Europe, right on their borders would freak the Dutch leadership out. Look at the War of Devolution. England and the Netherlands had just finished a slugging match, but the Dutch still signed on to the Triple alliance with them and Sweden to keep France from taking the entire Spanish Netherlands. England being a "republic" won't change Dutch attitudes.

Ah but Louis XIV does a deal with the Dutch giving their the share they wanted of the Spanish Netherlands with an eye to reconquer it later when the succession war is over. In OTL Louis didn't compromise with the United Provinces which is why they joined the Triple Alliance. However with the HRE gearing up for war Louis decides to cut his losses, for now, with the Netherlands and tries to disarm the Triple Alliance by pulling on the loose thread.
 
Ah but Louis XIV does a deal with the Dutch giving their the share they wanted of the Spanish Netherlands with an eye to reconquer it later when the succession war is over. In OTL Louis didn't compromise with the United Provinces which is why they joined the Triple Alliance. However with the HRE gearing up for war Louis decides to cut his losses, for now, with the Netherlands and tries to disarm the Triple Alliance by pulling on the loose thread.

Dealing or not dealing with the Dutch wouldn't affect jack. I can't see the Dutch wanting to add a bunch of Catholics to their country.
 
Dealing or not dealing with the Dutch wouldn't affect jack. I can't see the Dutch wanting to add a bunch of Catholics to their country.

Tell that to Protestant England and Ireland. Its less about the people more about the land. Besides as the war kicks of the Dutch are merely keeping a small military presence officially to 'prevent France taking more land' in case they have to hand the Spanish Netherlands back following an Austrian victory.They aren't losing anything by sitting on the sidelines to begin with.

And as far as I am aware the MAIN reason the Dutch joined the Triple Alliance is that France wanted too big a share of the pie in the Spanish Netherlands. If France is more reasonable I believe a neutral United Provinces is a possible outcome.
 
Tell that to Protestant England and Ireland. Its less about the people more about the land. Besides as the war kicks of the Dutch are merely keeping a small military presence officially to 'prevent France taking more land' in case they have to hand the Spanish Netherlands back following an Austrian victory.They aren't losing anything by sitting on the sidelines to begin with.

And as far as I am aware the MAIN reason the Dutch joined the Triple Alliance is that France wanted too big a share of the pie in the Spanish Netherlands. If France is more reasonable I believe a neutral United Provinces is a possible outcome.

Yeah Louis XIV and reasonable don't go well together. And BTW, in OTL the Dutch more or less implied that France could have the whole Spanish Netherlands without any objections on their part, but when push came to shove and Louis XIV was sitting in complete control of the territory, they backpedaled heavily. In many ways the Dutch were the first nation to try and create a "balance of power" in Europe, the precursor to the British of the 18th century.

From what I've seen and read I have a hard time believing that the Dutch would allow France to take half of the Spanish Netherlands. Remember that part of the problem was the Dutch didn't want to share a border with France. They were afraid of an invasion and hoped to use Spain's territory as a shield (really didn't work out well for them in the Franco-Dutch war though, now did it?). Plus there's the matter of selling it to the populace and the reigning Merchant Princes (which is what the States-General basically was), who would be loath to share a border with an expansionist France and worry about the potential reopening of the port of Antwerp (not something the Dutch merchant class would be in favor of). I'm not knocking your plans by any means, merely trying to understand your reasoning.
 
Yeah Louis XIV and reasonable don't go well together. And BTW, in OTL the Dutch more or less implied that France could have the whole Spanish Netherlands without any objections on their part, but when push came to shove and Louis XIV was sitting in complete control of the territory, they backpedaled heavily. In many ways the Dutch were the first nation to try and create a "balance of power" in Europe, the precursor to the British of the 18th century.

From what I've seen and read I have a hard time believing that the Dutch would allow France to take half of the Spanish Netherlands. Remember that part of the problem was the Dutch didn't want to share a border with France. They were afraid of an invasion and hoped to use Spain's territory as a shield (really didn't work out well for them in the Franco-Dutch war though, now did it?). Plus there's the matter of selling it to the populace and the reigning Merchant Princes (which is what the States-General basically was), who would be loath to share a border with an expansionist France and worry about the potential reopening of the port of Antwerp (not something the Dutch merchant class would be in favor of). I'm not knocking your plans by any means, merely trying to understand your reasoning.

Gahhh!

You're right. Looking back I even reasoned the same earlier on in my TL but when it was suggested the main reason was a failure to split the Spanish Netherlands I went forward with that.

This is the problem of writing in a vacuum and infrequently. You miss things other people would point out. Inconsistencies.

I feel a major rewrite is required. Damn.

Still, thank you for the critique of my plans. I'd rather have people tell I'm wrong and explain why than just go along with stuff that isn't historically accurate.

Back to the drawing board.
 
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