French ATL Aid Needed

So, I was wondering about an ATL in which France became the dominant power in the 18-19th, maybe even 20th century.

However, I am not thinking that the PODs should occur during the Napoleon Wars rather than during the late medieval ages and early renaissance. I thought about two major factor which, once achieved, could turn the tables in many a wars to come, and other things as well:

Somehow, France would have to incorporate all of Burgundies possesions into its territory, and then turning protestant.

My main concern here is that the Netherlands do not go to Spain but completely to France, possibly even while they become protestant. Through the second major event, France would have to decide that the Pope's power is too strong in comparison to their King's one. Thus, the King decides to embrace his dutch subject's faith!

This would probably lead to France being less centralised, more independent from catholic faith and probably also with a great base against both England in naval issues and one of the strongest economic regions, especially during the 17-19th century (but also beyond). Protestant faith would secure a more unified state, and together with the more decentralised nature of the ATL France the Dutch could stay integrated into the French Kingdom.

This could also lead to a little Britain in France, in a way that they create a constitutional monarchy instead of the absolutist which in the end was one major reason for the French's ferocity during the revolution.

So - would this be enterily unprobable or somehow managable to achieve? I do not expect it to be near to our timeline, only to be at least partly plausible.
 

Philip

Donor
I agree that the Napoleonic Wars are too late. The Succession Wars of the 18th Century could work for French dominance, but I don't think it will get you a Protestant France.

A French marriage for Mary of Burgundy might be the best way to get your plan going. Take a look at the First Italian War. Franco-Papal relations were rather stressed here.
 
I agree that the Napoleonic Wars are too late. The Succession Wars of the 18th Century could work for French dominance, but I don't think it will get you a Protestant France.

A French marriage for Mary of Burgundy might be the best way to get your plan going. Take a look at the First Italian War. Franco-Papal relations were rather stressed here.

Yes, maybe a 'mixed' France would be even more 'revolutionary'. :p Eventually with a greater religious tolerance since Catholics and Protestant form one state (if a split-up can be prevented.. maybe a 30-years-war on French territory?).. this could even be luring Protestand and Catholics likewise to go to France if their territories are adjacent to France and their respective confession is seen as heretic.

However, there will be the problem of the hardcore Cath. still looking to the Pope. Maybe if they're reformed..
 

Philip

Donor
maybe a 30-years-war on French territory?)

Shouldn't take that much. Something on the scale of the Schmalkaldic War should do it.

However, there will be the problem of the hardcore Cath. still looking to the Pope. Maybe if they're reformed..

Follow the lead of OTL England/United Kingdom. Allow Catholicism, but ban Catholics from government positions (or at least the highest levels). As long as they are allowed religious and economic freedoms, Catholics will be reasonably well behaved.
 
Shouldn't take that much. Something on the scale of the Schmalkaldic War should do it.



Follow the lead of OTL England/United Kingdom. Allow Catholicism, but ban Catholics from government positions (or at least the highest levels). As long as they are allowed religious and economic freedoms, Catholics will be reasonably well behaved.

Well, the problem being is that still protestantism will have to spread quite strongly through France, but in worked in Britain.. so essentially France would be more like OTL Britain.

If this would work, Germany will have a hard time against France, seeing that France and the Netherlands would essentially be one country. Though luck for Prussia to win a war against that monster, especially with Paris being not the sole heart and brain of France alltogether.
 
Yes, the Wedding of Mary of Burgundy is a good PoD ( but not the only possible one ).

Suppose she weds Louis D'orleans ( say Louis XI is more calculating, or less axious to kill off the Orleans, or Jeanne dies, or Orleans flees to Burgundy ) and they have children.

Louis of Orleans then becomes Louis XII of France as per OTL...

Of course, that will change the way Brittany is rattached to France, but I think that event is unavoidable.

With a PoD that early, protestant France is easy.

You could also do it with an earlier PoD, by, say, getting Phillippe II to have even more problem with the Papacy and to annex Flanders ( ie attach it to the royal domain as punishment for rebellion ) after Bouvines.

It can be done with a leter PoD, but I think the last chance for protestant France is during the regency after Henry II death and even that is difficult. Getting France to have the whole of the Netherlands is possible as late as early Louis XIV reign, IMO ( but that requires the french to do VERY well on the battlefield AND diplomatic field ).

In summary, the earlier the PoD, the easier, and no Pod after say 1562, can work, IMO. Well except for a very specific PoD in 1610 :)
 
Yes, the Wedding of Mary of Burgundy is a good PoD ( but not the only possible one ).

Suppose she weds Louis D'orleans ( say Louis XI is more calculating, or less axious to kill off the Orleans, or Jeanne dies, or Orleans flees to Burgundy ) and they have children.

Louis of Orleans then becomes Louis XII of France as per OTL...

Of course, that will change the way Brittany is rattached to France, but I think that event is unavoidable.

With a PoD that early, protestant France is easy.

You could also do it with an earlier PoD, by, say, getting Phillippe II to have even more problem with the Papacy and to annex Flanders ( ie attach it to the royal domain as punishment for rebellion ) after Bouvines.

It can be done with a leter PoD, but I think the last chance for protestant France is during the regency after Henry II death and even that is difficult. Getting France to have the whole of the Netherlands is possible as late as early Louis XIV reign, IMO ( but that requires the french to do VERY well on the battlefield AND diplomatic field ).

In summary, the earlier the PoD, the easier, and no Pod after say 1562, can work, IMO. Well except for a very specific PoD in 1610 :)

Mmh.. yes that sounds quite convincing!

The problem I have now, it somehow starts out to become a Francewank if France and England turn out to be both protestant. This would lead both nations to have the same faith - in a time were faith meant allegiance! And then there are these two bad catholic states south from France, as well as the uncertainy in Germany.. soo somehow it seems that if Spain tries to attack England, and France is protestant, this could lead to Drake having the French navy at his side.

Now, this somehow results into a world divided into .. lets say mostly 60% French, 30% English and the rest independent, mainly also because the French were nearly without enemy when they're allied to England, take historically Dutch and French provinces..

Here's a map I did up to now (Africa is mainly swallowed up by France because for that, they leave English interests in India alone, as well as because Spain and Portugal have no say after France and England kicked them out of the New World during a War similar to the seven-years war - But with France/England, against Spain/Portugal. France then helped the English crush down this silly rebellion in North America, leaving France without a bad Napoleon who sells Lousiana to a tiny Republic.. and since the rest was Spanish/Mexican, the French annexed great parts):

FranceATL.png
 
Gah, straight lines in North America! And by straight I mean vertical! And by that I mean that the lines look horribly off and on any map politicians would've used to draw the borders, those would be incredibly wonky curved lines! That Californian border is especially bad.
 
Gah, straight lines in North America! And by straight I mean vertical! And by that I mean that the lines look horribly off and on any map politicians would've used to draw the borders, those would be incredibly wonky curved lines! That Californian border is especially bad.

Well, the borders were drawn in a few minutes. :p

However, I wouldn't say that straight borders in general seem unrealistic - Just look at OTL Canadian/US border. The French/English border here was done during a time were nearly nobody actually settled in the plains and the southern ports of New Orleans were not already used as an immigrant port for the French North American colonial holdings. So they just said "Allright.. cut it down here, and then nobody complains!". Sure, latitude would make more sense here, but I had no time.

Same goes for California - The war was in the early 18th (like OTL Britain settled British Columbia far earlier than the midwest), and they had no idea about gold in California.. so they just let them Mexicans keep that after they annexed Spanish holdings in a second war. Maybe they even granted Mexico a few shares of land because they helped in smashing the Spaniards completely because they wanted independence?

So sure, it could be better, but straight lines don't seem too much off-track in NA I figure.
 
Well, the borders were drawn in a few minutes. :p

However, I wouldn't say that straight borders in general seem unrealistic - Just look at OTL Canadian/US border. The French/English border here was done during a time were nearly nobody actually settled in the plains and the southern ports of New Orleans were not already used as an immigrant port for the French North American colonial holdings. So they just said "Allright.. cut it down here, and then nobody complains!". Sure, latitude would make more sense here, but I had no time.

Same goes for California - The war was in the early 18th (like OTL Britain settled British Columbia far earlier than the midwest), and they had no idea about gold in California.. so they just let them Mexicans keep that after they annexed Spanish holdings in a second war. Maybe they even granted Mexico a few shares of land because they helped in smashing the Spaniards completely because they wanted independence?

So sure, it could be better, but straight lines don't seem too much off-track in NA I figure.
Nono, I meant the vertical lines were bad in the sense that they weren't curving with the globe, but instead went straight up and down as if it was a Mercator Projection instead of a Robinson Projection. In a Robinson Projection map, as that one is, the lines of longitude don't go straight up and down except at the prime meridian.
 

Hendryk

Banned
In order to get a Protestant France, I suggest a POD during the reigns of Charles IX or Henry III. Two significant figures of the time that you could use are Catherine de Medicis and Gaspard de Coligny; perhaps the former dies earlier and/or the latter lives longer.

The latest date to make France a truly world-spanning empire superseding Britain would be 1758. Have the Seven Years' War end with a French victory, and you end up with France in a dominant position in North America, South Asia and much of continental Europe.
 
Nono, I meant the vertical lines were bad in the sense that they weren't curving with the globe, but instead went straight up and down as if it was a Mercator Projection instead of a Robinson Projection. In a Robinson Projection map, as that one is, the lines of longitude don't go straight up and down except at the prime meridian.

Oh, ah.. well this is probably because .. well I was too lazy I guess. :cool:

@Hendryk: Yes, but here comes the trouble - If England(not sure if Scotland actually joins or becomes reformed in protest.. have to think about it) and France work together because they are essentially the only two protestant superpowers, next to a fledging catholic Spain and Portugal, a completely catholic Italy and just some little proestant footholds in Germany (Scandinavia, who needs it!?)..

In these times I would think that confession is quite important, and if Spain then tries to invade Britain in the 16ths, France helps out.. and soon, the old enemies become allies against the two catholic bad-boys. So a seven-years war seems a bit unlikely.. and with the dutch on their side, France could probably achieve colonial footholds nearly everywhere faster than England.

Then again, maybe a little struggle between allies.. Portugal and Spain rising again.. well, if you want to write history so that it gets tension.. :D
 
If you want a Dutch France, this might be an idea. At the start of the rebellion the Netherlands didn't want to become independent. They asked Queen Elizabeth of England to become their queen. I also believe they asked the king of France. I am not entirly certain if they asked the king of France to become their king, but at least they asked him for support. Anyway, OTL neither of them accepted but sent some incompetent buffoon to help the Dutch. If France is protestant, the chances of the Dutch asking the French king to be their king only increases. This probably don't make the Netherlands French, but only in personal union with France, but it will probably good enough fo you, assuming that France together with the Netherlands manages to beat Spain.
 

Hendryk

Banned
So a seven-years war seems a bit unlikely.. and with the dutch on their side, France could probably achieve colonial footholds nearly everywhere faster than England.
Oh, I agree. My two suggestions were unrelated. If France becomes Protestant in the late 16th century, the cumulative changes will be far-reaching enough to butterfly away the Seven Years' War, at least as it took place in OTL.
 
Arrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhh!:eek: That straight line from Michigan's Upper Peninsula to Florida ignores too many lakes, rivers and mountains to be plausable for that distance (1300+ miles). The Great Lakes and the Mississippi River were first mapped over 300 years ago.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Arrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhh!:eek: That straight line from Michigan's Upper Peninsula to Florida ignores too many lakes, rivers and mountains to be plausable for that distance (1300+ miles). The Great Lakes and the Mississippi River were first mapped over 300 years ago.
Well, one supposes the map is to be considered a rough draft. There are obviously several things about it that will need correcting, such as the strange partition of Brazil--if France gets that much, it may as well get the whole thing, since apart from the southern bit, all that's left is jungle and bushland anyway.

Also, with a POD before the 1750s, France would most likely preempt Britain into the Indian subcontinent, and may as a result leave Indochina alone, especially if it claims the Indonesian archipelago to boot. In which case, it's unlikely the British would even make it to Australia, let alone lay a permanent claim on the place.
 
Well, one supposes the map is to be considered a rough draft. There are obviously several things about it that will need correcting, such as the strange partition of Brazil--if France gets that much, it may as well get the whole thing, since apart from the southern bit, all that's left is jungle and bushland anyway.

Also, with a POD before the 1750s, France would most likely preempt Britain into the Indian subcontinent, and may as a result leave Indochina alone, especially if it claims the Indonesian archipelago to boot. In which case, it's unlikely the British would even make it to Australia, let alone lay a permanent claim on the place.

So perhaps a more reversed situation.. France gets Indochina/nesia and even Australia (though I thought France was there OTL but left because they believed it was only desert.. such did the dutch a few decades before that).

And with the lakes, me is sorry but I haven't got any detailed geographic knowledge about the Americas. :eek:

And with Brasil.. well yes I was thinking the same when I looked at my map. A bit weird. :<

Maybe France would trade North American possesions to get all of India etc.. mmh..
 
Top