French and German Superpowers

I want a basic explanation about how Germany and France could be superpowers in the late 20th, early 21st centuries. I want them to be the sole super powers. No POD earlier than 1754. Good luck.

Bonus points if they create a polarized world.

Thank you!
 
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The would need and Anglo, American, and Russian screw. Plus a form of detente between the two powers. You can't become a super power if the you face a major war that destroys your country every 20 years.
 
I want a basic explanation about how Germany and France could be superpowers in the late 20th, early 21st centuries. I want them to be the sole super powers. No POD earlier than 1754. Good luck.

Bonus points if they create a polarized world.

I have to ask:

If you're asking others to take the time to write you a scenario, a "please" and "thank you" may be a nice addition, no? "I want" is just so demanding...
 
Very Successful French Republic/Really Lucky Napoleonic Empire conquers most of the world, then splits into western French-dominated and eastern German-dominated halves? :)

But yes, ask politely.
 
Very Successful French Republic/Really Lucky Napoleonic Empire conquers most of the world, then splits into western French-dominated and eastern German-dominated halves? :)

May already be to late, no? With the Eastern coast of North America already n the Anglo-sphere and Britain unlikely to be destroyed by the French this is really difficult.
 
To be a superpower France needs to hold onto more of North America. They can do that by dumping more settlers along the Mississippi in the 1700s. The east coast might speak English but everyone west of the Appalachians is French. If France holds onto a heavily french Louisiana Purchase they're going to be a lot more powerful throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. And unlike Algeria French settlers are going to outnumber the natives. French settlers block the Americans from moving west and strangle the USA as a superpower. And unlike the English the French were always much better about treating their colonies as part of France rather that some unwanted appendage so they're more likely to remain as French territory than declare independence. In the 19th century French America expands west and becomes embroiled in a series of wars with Mexico snatching Texas and California from them. At the dawn of the 20th century France controls everything between California and the Ohio valley. France can draw upon the strength of half a continent.

Germany is much harder since they show up late to the party and don't have many places to expand to. Perhaps they swallow up the Austro-Hungarians and the Polish? That would give them a significant percentage of Europe. Part of the problem is that in OTL Germany was pretty intent in competing with France. I can't see a situation where two increasingly powerful rivals and neighbors don't continually go to war.
 
To be a superpower France needs to hold onto more of North America. They can do that by dumping more settlers along the Mississippi in the 1700s. The east coast might speak English but everyone west of the Appalachians is French. If France holds onto a heavily french Louisiana Purchase they're going to be a lot more powerful throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. And unlike Algeria French settlers are going to outnumber the natives. French settlers block the Americans from moving west and strangle the USA as a superpower. And unlike the English the French were always much better about treating their colonies as part of France rather that some unwanted appendage so they're more likely to remain as French territory than declare independence. In the 19th century French America expands west and becomes embroiled in a series of wars with Mexico snatching Texas and California from them. At the dawn of the 20th century France controls everything between California and the Ohio valley. France can draw upon the strength of half a continent.
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With your setting its more like a French version of the US with most of the power concentrated in North America, with European France pretty much an appendage of the French America:D:rolleyes: Its the same with a UK that didnt lose the 13 colonies. The power will eventually shift from the European mother country to North America that has untapped resources and open land.Also your statement about the French being better colonizers is dubious.
 
How about a World where France decidedly Wins the War of Spanish Succession, or wins enough to get a Personal Union between France and Spain, while Austria manages to Unite the Holy Roman Empire?

The trick would be getting both to happen in the same time line...
 
I don't think the problem is so much making France and Germany superpowers, as it is eliminating the British and keeping Russia and an anglophone North America from becoming superpowers. Hard to see how you get there with such a late POV.

Also, a French superpower is likely to dominate in large parts of Germany, which makes this still more difficult to arrange.
 
I don't think the problem is so much making France and Germany superpowers, as it is eliminating the British and keeping Russia and an anglophone North America from becoming superpowers. Hard to see how you get there with such a late POV.

Also, a French superpower is likely to dominate in large parts of Germany, which makes this still more difficult to arrange.

I agree. I think the problem is that as neighbors in a small area they can't both be superpowers especially with the late POD. If France becomes more powerful then Germany might never form and will be stuck in her shadow. By the time Germany unites there's really no way for it to grow too powerful except at France's expense.
 
In one of my potential timelines I wanted to create a Cold(ish) War between France and Germany. Basicly France ends up with Wallonia and in the 19th century France and Germany fought a couple of wars over Luxemburg, Alsace-lorraine and the Saarland. This ends in a stalemate/cold War situation. Both countries basicly gather a bunch of nations and lead an alliance against the other. France mainly focusing on the mediterranean and allies with Spain, Portugal, Italy, Sicily, Morocco, while Germany focusses on central Europe and allies with Denmark, Finland, Poland and Hungary.

Personally I think this might work, but the problem is that you still have the Ottoman Empire (which might collapse and then the remaining nations join one of either alliances), Russia (which could simply descent into anarchy or something). The biggest problems though are Britain and the USA. Both wil simply be too strong not to be a major factor in the world. I could see both ignoring the situation in Europe (in my mind Britain kind of leads a lose alliance of neutral state, including Switzerland, the Netherlands and Scandinavia).

The problem with this scenario France and Germany sole superpowers is that if you want to get rid of Britain or England, you need to get rid of them around the 17th-18th century. In that case France rules the continent and Germany won't form. If you want a strong Germany you need to go to the 19th century and at that point you can't get rid of Britain (or the USA). To avoid this, you probablt going to need a POD somewhere deep in the middleages.
 
Well, you can't have France and Germany be superpowers at the same time. Superpower status for either nation is contingent on hegemony over continental Europe.

France can reach it by winning the Seven Year's War, or maybe getting extremely lucky in the Napoleonic Wars. Avoiding the demographic collapse is also necessary.

Germany could probably do it through a lightning fast CP victory in WWI, or the so-awful-it's-fascinating Nazi victory scenario (which would conveniently wipe out Russia).

The problem is how do you get them to be the sole superpowers. You would need some kind of event that utterly destroys the United States. Simply having it not exist doesn't work, since that would mean Britain kept the 13 colonies (thereby becoming a superpower itself). And of course, you need to somehow permanently carve up China so it never manages to industrialize if you want this scenario to last.
 
The problem is coal and iron, specifically a lack of it in even most expansive OTL France.

Germany on the other hand was quite close to becoming the 3rd Superpower IOTL, two world wars showed that Germany had most of the resources needed to fight prolonged wars independently in the 'Age of Superpower'. So many of the Greater Germany scenarios put forward here from time to time would go close to making Germany a Superpower.
 
IMO, problem is what superpower does mean?
1. US dominated Western Hemisphere and sea. (French?)
2. Russia dominated Eurasia and land. (Germany?)

So problem is France and Germany both can be superpower? I think it can't. One can't become superpower without destroying other power.
So IMO, unless French move to North America, it is impossible to have both being superpower.
 
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