Frederick the Great

Can anyone tell me if Frederick the Geat's childlessness was caused by his aversion to his wife, as his sister the Margravine of Bayreuth says; or through an illness/injury that caused him to be infertile, as Voltaire writes? Or was he just (as evinced by the homoerotic at Sans Souci) homosexual
 
Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria managed to have quite a few kids. I think Frederick could have done his duty if he has liked his wife.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It wasn't unusual for homosexual/bisexual kings to have children - Monsieur is a good example in that he is recorded as having nine children by his two wives, and he had a mistress too; but Frederick often makes me think of his nephew, Gustav III, (also homo-/bi-/asexual), and Gustav IV was rumored to be fathered by Count Munck af Fulkila??

According to Nancy Mitford, Fritz probably lost his virginity on a visit he and his father paid to Dresden; and before he became king he took a woman as his mistress, but the child was stillborn or died shortly after birth. Therefore, its reasonable to assume that his aversion to his wife (who he viewed as Austria trying to control Prussia) was the only cause (even if he was gay or bi). So, if we give him Anna Leopoldovna or Amelia of Britain as a wife, might there be children?
 
A crazy thought - what if der Grosse Landgrafin (Caroline Henriette of Pfalz-Zweibrucken, Landgravine of Hesse-Darmstadt) who was one of a few women Fritz actually admired, were to become his wife instead of marrying Ludwig the Howevermanieth of Darmstadt (I'm sorry, but the Ludwigs in Darmstadt are almost as confusing as the Louis' in France to me)
 
I tend to favor a mix of the hating his wife and being gay stuff myself. Also he probably realized his brothers line was entirely capable of taking over for him when he dies.
 

ingemann

Banned
Can anyone tell me if Frederick the Geat's childlessness was caused by his aversion to his wife, as his sister the Margravine of Bayreuth says; or through an illness/injury that caused him to be infertile, as Voltaire writes? Or was he just (as evinced by the homoerotic at Sans Souci) homosexual

He was in all likelyhood homosexual, but there was other reasons. There was little reason for him to get children, he had plenty of brothers and his sons wouldn't inherite through their mother (and even if that was the case, Fredericks brother and heir was married to her sister). So he get nothing out of producing his own heirs, so why should he sleep with her, when he in all likelyhood found it at the very least unpleasant.

If Frederick had been married to a important heiress or alliance partner, he would likely have produced a few children, but here there was no reason to do so.
 
Brunswick was the closest and firmest ally that Prussia had and the strongest permanent ally. The two sisters married the heir AND the spare of Frederick William I, and their brother Ferdinand was arguably the most important general of the Seven Years War. How much more important do you want?

we were talking about a 'true' power, like France, Austria, England, Sweden or Russia(even denmark), those are thing more to consider...

I think Old Fritz relucant to have childern were more his own chilhood traumas: All the physical, verbal and emotional abuse who his father make him endure to become the 'soldier-king' (with the dead of his best friend maybe lover Hans Hermann von Katte being the most traumatic event), and historician send to agree that even old fritz hate his wife since the begin:

"Frederick William considered marrying Frederick to Elisabeth of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, the niece of Empress Anna of Russia, but this plan was ardently opposed by Prince Eugene of Savoy. Frederick himself proposed marrying Maria Theresa of Austria in return for renouncing the succession. Instead, Eugene persuaded Frederick William, through Seckendorff, that the crown prince marry Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Bevern, a Protestant relative of the Austrian Habsburgs. Although Frederick wrote to his sister that, "There can be neither love nor friendship between us," and he considered suicide, he went along with the wedding on 12 June 1733."

(A POD when old frirtz married Maria theresa can be a great timeline)

Thus being chidless can be atribute to his own traumatic childhood, If he would have a better childhood that would not have been a problem
 
I started reading a Timeline on this board where Frederick and Maria Theresa got married but stopped when it turned into a massive Freddy-wank and relegated MARIA THERESA OF AUSTRIA to being little more than being a baby factory who was regularly told to "stay in the kitchen".
 

ingemann

Banned
Brunswick was the closest and firmest ally that Prussia had and the strongest permanent ally. The two sisters married the heir AND the spare of Frederick William I, and their brother Ferdinand was arguably the most important general of the Seven Years War. How much more important do you want?

Something which doesn't look like this:

641px-Herzogtum_Braunschweig_1789.png
 

ingemann

Banned
Just because it is unsightly doesn't make their millitary contribution less. They (and Hesse) regularly fielded the third / fourth strongest army in the Germanies, after Prussia and Austria.

If you can name a candidate who fits your criteria of having a pretty shape on the map, and isn't unavailable for some other reason, I'd like to hear it. In absence of that, Brunswick was the best option available.

Its shape isn't the problem, it's the size which is the problem. It's a very minor state.
 
Its shape isn't the problem, it's the size which is the problem. It's a very minor state.

Where there many other major German states Prussia could have been allied to? maybe Denmark or Sweden (I know not German but close enough to atleast be helpful) but otherwise I don't see that many major powers capable of helping them out militarily. Ones that aren't Hapsburg aligned.
 
Couple of points:

1) There was a Danish princess available, a Princess Louise, who was originally considered to marry Butcher Cumberland, as well as Adolf Frederik of Holstein, king of Sweden.

2) While admittedly unlikely, a Saxon princess is possible. However Maria Amalia would be butterflying away the entire future Spanish-Neapolitan Bourbons; next up is Maria Anna who was Electress of Bavaria, but was childless (more likely because of her husband); then even less likely is Maria Josefa (Louis XVI's mother).

3) Bavaria had princesses available, Maria Antonia, Maria Anna and Maria Josefa; and I can't see that if Friedrich wanted to marry Maria Theresia who was Catholic, that religion would've been a major obstacle.

4) Another random princess is Anna Charlotte Amalie van Nassau, daughter of the prince of Orange and niece of the Swedish king; or Princess Luise Friederike of Wurttemberg, the only surviving child of the Erbprinz of Wurttemberg and his Prussian wife

5) Succession wars were also mentioned. Yet save the Austrian/Spanish successions were the only ones in the time frame where the succession through female line WAS possible. The War of the Palatinate Succession was as a result of Liselotte's unpaid dowry; the Polish and Bavarian Successions were both where 2 rival candidates disputed the succession (one because of an elective succession; the other due to an in-house fight between branches of the same family). Germany was/is? Covered by Salic Law which bars females succeeding.
 

Rex Mundi

Banned
He's stating the size is "a problem". I'm stating that the size is not a problem, because it is the only option available, for the various points I listed. In addition, Brunswick routinely fielded forces well over 10k troops( good sized field army for the day), trained to the same standard as Prussia. So I don't see why her size is "a problem" ( whatever that is supposed to mean).

It is not a "very minor state" . A very minor state would be Shaumberg-Lippe or Waldeck. Brunswick has a bigger army than Bavaria. Don't let the size on the map fool you about strength. If that were so, Austria-Hungary and Russia and France should have stomped Prussia, given that area of the map was about 50x as much area as all of Prussia, with Austria alone many times Prussia's "size" on the map.

If you are going to tie another principality to yours, naturally you will pick the best/strongest candidate you can. Since Brunswick was the best option available to Frederick William, it makes sense to tie that choice as tightly as possible, with the two marriages they did. In absence of those ties, do you think Brunswick would have stood by Prussia through all that happened? Prussia clearly thought Brunswick to be important to have as its closest ally, and history bore that out.

What exactly do you contribute to this discussion?

My God, why are you typing all of this? Nobody disputed any of that.
 

Rex Mundi

Banned
You add nothing to this discourse. Welcome to my ignore file.

Are you seriously so thick as to not understand that nobody disputed Brunswick was the best choice around at the time? Only that Frederick didn't consider heirs essential to his Brunswick marriage?
 
That's a bit of a stretch, as she would have been far too young in 1733. This would require a decade of waiting on the part of Frederick William, who would have been dead before she reached marital age. Which might have made a mess of things.



Maria Amalia would again be quite young, given the haste with which the Germans sought marriages for their heirs. If age can be overcome, this opens up an interesting possibility for a Prussian take over of Saxony, given the Saxon's discontent with their elector's reconversion to Catholicism. But very unlikely given Austria's interest. This is the best choice after Hannover if it can be made to happen and opens a lot of interesting possibilities for combining as part of the second silesian war.

Amalia was 13 (1737/1738) when she was married to Carlos III of Spain. And Louise-Elisabeth de France (Louis XV's daughter) was married to the duke of Parma at age 12, and had her first child at 14.
 
So, perhaps Frederick William can do what the duchess de Maillé under the July Monarchy: marry the king's younger sons first that there is a brood of heirs by the time the crown prince marries. Also, Fritz's cousin the prince of Wales didnt marry until 1736. Fritz is in a better position to wait, what with not one but three younger brothers to inherit.
 
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