Franklin Pierce, 1853-57, both prevents U.S. Civil War and brokers deal for gradual phase-out of slavery.

Yes, the same guy viewed as one of more forgettable and crummiest of the U.S. presidents, instead becomes one of the best.

Yes, this is a flight of fancy, absolutely! Please pitch some ideas and help bring it to life. :)
 
Maybe, with quite a bit of luck and stubbornness, you could get Kentucky, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Missouri, if you avoid the border war with Kansas, to phase out slavery as late as the 1850s but getting the rest of the South to do it seems almost impossible honestly.
 
Completely ASB. Lincoln proposed compensated emancipation to Maryland and Delaware DURING THE CIVIL WAR and they rejected it. There were 800 enslaved people in Delaware. Utterly impossible to imagine that any states with more enslaved people would accept this, particularly VA.
 
Maybe not technically ASB, but you'd need a dramatic change to things long before 1853 to have (a very different than OTL) Pierce and the pro-slavery people come to any agreement here.
 
The only way I could see is if the train accident causes a come to Jesus moment (his wife was religious) while at the same time Amazing Grace is somehow being sung in the background and he sees the tragedy as God's punishment of him for supporting slavery. This leads him to becoming a not-quite John Brown zealot and he works to end slavery. Outlandish, yes. But it would be interesting.
 

“ . . A northern Democrat who believed that the abolitionist movement was a fundamental threat to the nation's unity, . . ”

**************

This gives Franklin a certain amount of “street cred” with southern politicians. Maybe he consciously undertries and plays the Great Delegator.

He privately tells southern leaders, Hey, you guys figure it out. But if you do, you know there’s a plum of tariff “reform,” right?
 

dcharles

Banned
The only way I could see is if the train accident causes a come to Jesus moment (his wife was religious) while at the same time Amazing Grace is somehow being sung in the background and he sees the tragedy as God's punishment of him for supporting slavery. This leads him to becoming a not-quite John Brown zealot and he works to end slavery. Outlandish, yes. But it would be interesting.

I applaud this.
 

dcharles

Banned
Couldn't happen and wouldn't happen. I would echo the sentiments that there's an outside chance that the Border States would end slavery, but not in the 1850s.
 
Even aside from the complete change in Pierce’s personality - the country was fiercely divided over the expansion of slavery into the western territories. Never mind the eventual abolition of the institution where it existed. The specter of Free Soilism was strong enough to unite the South as a voting bloc and polarize politics along a geographic/sectional divide. Even Lincoln and the Republican Party didn’t dare run a national campaign on the question of striking slavery down in the South. The question of gradual abolition being proposed by a sitting president just will not be tolerated. Without deeper and earlier changes, this is completely outside the window of acceptable policy in the 1850s. And once again that’s completely ignoring the fact that Pierce was a Democrat who believed abolitionism was a direct threat to the Union and pretty much worked overtime to appease, enforce, and even advance planter interests. As said already, technically not ASB but pretty much ASB.
 
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Even aside from the complete change in Pierce’s personality - the country was fiercely divided over the expansion of slavery into the western territories. Never mind the eventual abolition of the institution where it existed. The specter of Free Soilism was strong enough to unite the South as a voting bloc and polarize politics along a geographic/sectional divide. Even Lincoln and the Republican Party didn’t dare run a national campaign on the question of striking slavery down in the South.

Yes, it was the expansion fight that led the Cotton States pulling out. But, being angry about being tweaked and owned on the issue was shall we say even bigger on their minds.

Thomas Jefferson proposed the idea towards the end of his life of the federal government provide a pot of voluntary money for states for emancipation to defer costs. It's the sort of idea that might have made a real difference before slavery related questions became red hot and politically toxic.
 
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Even aside from the complete change in Pierce’s personality - the country was fiercely divided over the expansion of slavery into the western territories. Never mind the eventual abolition of the institution where it existed. The specter of Free Soilism was strong enough to unite the South as a voting bloc and polarize politics along a geographic/sectional divide. Even Lincoln and the Republican Party didn’t dare run a national campaign on the question of striking slavery down in the South. The question of gradual abolition being proposed by a sitting president just will not be tolerated. Without deeper and earlier changes, this is completely outside the window of acceptable policy in the 1850s. And once again that’s completely ignoring the fact that Pierce was a Democrat who believed abolitionism was a direct threat to the Union and pretty much worked overtime to appease, enforce, and even advance planter interests. As said already, technically not ASB but pretty much ASB.
Not to mention the fact that he was an alcoholic(or pretty close to it). This is relevant because to pull this off would have required enormous stamina, incredible residency, & a stout will- all qualities I’m afraid the
befuddled-by-drink Pierce utterly lacked.
 
the country was fiercely divided over the expansion of slavery into the western territories.
Yes, it was the expansion fight that led the Cotton States pulling out. But, being angry about being tweaked and owned on the issue was shall we say even bigger on their minds.
Yes, the southern states seemed to view this as an existential crisis way earlier than they needed to. And because of this, southern leaders might be open to the president [pretty much any president] saying, Hey, you guys work out a plan [for orderly change] and I’ll support it.

And responsible [read: risk-averse] southern leaders might come up with a more radical plan than they really need to.
 
Not to mention the fact that he was an alcoholic(or pretty close to it). This is relevant because to pull this off would have required enormous stamina, incredible residency, & a stout will
I’m glad you put this out here— because I’m not talking about any of this. Instead, I’m more talking about a barely capable man half-assing it . . .

You’ve probably heard that in many negotiations, the party who cares more, loses. So, I’m talking about Franklin taking an outside chance and succeeding precisely because he doesn’t put a lot of effort into it. He’s basically just in the right place at the right time. And gets accorded status as one of our greatest presidents. Oh, the irony! 🥴
 
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Yes, the southern states seemed to view this as an existential crisis way earlier than they needed to. And because of this, southern leaders might be open to the president [pretty much any president] saying, Hey, you guys work out a plan [for orderly change] and I’ll support it.

And responsible [read: risk-averse] southern leaders might come up with a more radical plan than they really need to.
I’m not really sure I understand. Are you suggesting that southern leaders at this time would spontaneously propose gradual abolition in the south themselves and find wide acceptance because it was ultimately the safest option and would lead to the preservation of the union? I really think to get this outcome you would need to prevent the cotton gin and the exploitation of the Mississippi Valley territories which led to a massive boom time for chattel slavery in the United States. Because by the 1850s, this brand of conciliatory planter which ranked union far above the plantation system in his constellation of mural priorities and was willing to work towards abolition was dead. They really died out back in the 1830s for the most part. This is just practically unworkable and might as well be ASB in the politics of the 1850s. You’d have a hard time finding a serious southern politician or two who would propose such a thing, never mind having it gain any sort of traction at all. They’d be tarred and feathered before the sun was down in all likelihood.
 
Yes, the same guy viewed as one of more forgettable and crummiest of the U.S. presidents, instead becomes one of the best.

Yes, this is a flight of fancy, absolutely! Please pitch some ideas and help bring it to life. :)
The main question, I'd say, is how far back a PoD you're willing to consider. By 1850 you're already decades too late for both the person of Pierce and the politics of the nation to be able to do anything approximating this without it being fully ASB. With a PoD a few decades prior you might be able to both chart the nation and Pierce himself on a different course to have different positions vis-a-vis and give Pierce a presidency that does this. But that is more an end goal of a TL than a PoD in and of itself, so to say.
I’m glad you put this out here— because I’m not talking about any of this. Instead, I’m more talking about a barely capable man half-assing it . . .

You’ve probably heard that in many negotiations, the party who cares more, loses. So, I’m talking about Franklin taking an outside chance and succeeding precisely because he doesn’t put a lot of effort into it. He’s basically just in the right place at the right time. And gets accorded status as one of our greatest presidents. Oh, the irony! 🥴
If you're willing to make this an event of a timeline with decades of buildup to actually make this make sense it could work. But you'd have to explore a PoD decades past (1804 might be a good place to look, so as to avoid the thorny question of whether or not Pierce's birth would be butterflied). Get the Southern states to chill before they view slavery as an integral part of their world order (a herculean task in and of itself) and eventually you can have it just so happen that Pierce is in office when slavery dies, just for the situational irony of it.
 
I’m not really sure I understand. Are you suggesting that southern leaders at this time would spontaneously propose gradual abolition in the south themselves and find wide acceptance because it was ultimately the safest option and would lead to the preservation of the union?

It needs to be said Virginia did have a number of anti slavery politicians some who did sponsor emancipationist bills. By the 1840s they were complaining in the press that the New England abolitionists were growing so loud it was making their position politically more and more difficult. But, they also didn’t think ending slavery in Virginia would save the Union from a schism.

They saw a war coming and believed it would be at its root over the inherent political power of the North vs South not any one issue.
 
It needs to be said Virginia did have a number of anti slavery politicians some who did sponsor emancipationist bills. By the 1840s they were complaining in the press that the New England abolitionists were growing so loud it was making their position politically more and more difficult. But, they also didn’t think ending slavery in Virginia would save the Union from a schism.

They saw a war coming and believed it would be at its root over the inherent political power of the North vs South not any one issue.
This is true, but these emancipationist forces were pretty much entirely marginal by the late 1830s and early 1840s. They were the last gasp of southern liberalism inherited from Jefferson. Overall the south as a unit, Virginia included, were shifting further and further towards the project of affirming chattel slavery in perpetuity through their territories. The lucrative internal slave trade which opened after the exploitation of the Mississippi Valley gave new life to the system during the 1830s and hardened pro-slavery sentiment among the planter class. That, combined with the hardening of free soilism and abolition to a lesser extent in the north (itself a product of the failure of southern liberalism), acted to further bind Virginia into the emerging sectionalist binary. Eugene Genovese discusses this a bit in “Roll, Jordan, Roll” which I’ve quoted before on this site in an unrelated discussion:
“The great reaction of 1831–1861 cannot be made the responsibility of abolitionist criticism, as it has been by apologists for the old regime nor can it be laid to Nat Turner, although this contention has much more force. Abolitionism itself had taken on a shriller tone because the dream of slow and peaceful emancipation had been evaporating. If Mr. Jefferson and his brilliant entourage in Virginia had not succeeded even in getting the matter discussed seriously, what hopes were left? South Carolina and Georgia had always been intransigent, and the derived demand for Virginia’s slaves effected by the westward cotton movement sealed the fate of the forces in the Upper South that continued to hope for emancipation. [as I was trying to note in my previous post] The Virginia debates, which opened the period of reaction, represented the last attempt of forces that had long been in retreat. Once the devil of emancipation had been exorcised, the South could reform itself. The nature and limits of that reform reveal much about the society that was coming to maturity.”

While I acknowledge the presence of the lingering ghost of southern emancipation even into the 1840s, it was nowhere near a powerful political force. It had been dealt a fatal blow in the previous decade and would not recover. By the 1850s, the time had long since passed for serious homegrown emancipation movements in the south. Nevermind emancipation movements generating from within the planter class itself which would seek to liquidate slavery to end the sectional divide. Even the most committed southern unionist never advocated such a position. I’m pretty sure that would even be an illegal political opinion in the southern state-autocracies of the late 1850s which had pretty much outlawed any discussion on abolition at all. It just isn’t possible without a far more sweeping PoD because it requires the planter class to commit collective suicide and voluntarily give up the entire basis for their civilization (in their minds). Not just their collective cash cows, but what they believed to be the fundamental basis of the southern racial order.
 
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This is true, but these emancipationist forces were pretty much entirely marginal by the late 1830s and early 1840s. They were the last gasp of southern liberalism inherited from Jefferson. Overall the aouth as a unit, Virginia included, were shifting further and further towards the project of affirming chattel slavery in perpetuity through their territories.

Perhaps though the Virginia press didn’t see it that way in those years. They didn’t see it that way during the war either including the moderately pro-slavery papers like the Richmond Examiner.

IMG-9143.jpg

My general sense is that it wasn’t so much the gradual emancipationist faction disappeared. Men like John Janney sponsored bills against slavery in the 1830s and were still in politics in the 1860s. It’s that they felt the political winds were against them.
 
My general sense is that it wasn’t so much the gradual emancipationist faction disappeared. Men like John Janney sponsored bills against slavery in the 1830s and were still in politics in the 1860s. It’s that they felt the political winds were against them.
When I say marginal, I don’t necessarily mean they up and vanished. But just looking at Janney’s career, I think it illustrates my point. A prominent Virginia politician who advanced gradual emancipation in the state, he and others made forceful arguments during the 1831 Slavery debate. Defeated in this effort and a few subsequent fruitless motions, his inclination for gradual abolition turn him towards advocacy and philanthropy. Unable to keep up with the hardening sectional divide that was splintering the Whig Party, Janney loses a major election and withdraws from politics almost entirely in the critical 1850s when sectionalism truly hardened into a bitter and powerful force. Eventually, we see him in the final act with ultimately impotent calls for peace and union to the delegates to the Virginia Secession Convention. He is politely respected and serves a pleasant figurehead for the Convention as elder statesman, but his opinions are roundly ignored by all. I think calling his abolitionist sentiment as a marginal belief in Virginia politics is valid considering how little success it met with consistently.

Men like Janney may still have been around in politics in the 1850s and 1860s, but they felt the political winds were against them because they clearly and overwhelmingly were against them. Like I was arguing earlier in the thread, changing these political winds requires a much deeper PoD than anything possible by the 1850s. And we are just discussing an Upper South state like Virginia and not the fire-eating secessionist hotbeds down in the cotton belt where this kind of opinion was even more isolated.
 
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