Frankish Denmark?

Inspired by a recent thread of mine.

In 810, Charlemagne was at Lippenham preparing to assemble an army to invade Denmark. However, the news that the king of Denmark, Godfred, had died and the country was in civil war. The need for an invasion seemed to fade, so the attack was called off.

WI Godfred hadn't been killed? Would Charlemagne have bothered conquering Denmark? Would he have been able to, and more importantly, would he have been able to hold it? I'm tempted to say no, but the book I'm reading right now suggests that it would have been possible.

Obviously if he is successful, the Viking age is probably killed off, or at least very weakened.
 
It is referred like Godfrey was indeed a threat to Charlemagne so he would probably bother at least to teach Godfrey a lesson.

As in 826 the Franks would have been able to occupy Jutland but probably wouldn't be able to cross into the isles.

With the upheavel in the Frankish empire to follow Godfrey or his sons should be able to regain Jutland. Perhaps even very early on if they'd pay the emperor fealty, which they probably wouldn't! :D
 
This has been discussed thoroughly before.
Unfortulately, I can't provide a link; it's not easy to find a certain thread because our title aren't that systematic.
(It becomes a lot easier, of course, if the discussion thread is included into the
Timeline Classification Table :D).

Actic Warrior, do you happen to remember to that thread?
Beside you, Valdemar II. had cotributed valuably; one of the major insights was that Jutland was relatively easily defensible because the potential invasion corridor was rather narrow and also fortified.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Inspired by a recent thread of mine.

In 810, Charlemagne was at Lippenham preparing to assemble an army to invade Denmark. However, the news that the king of Denmark, Godfred, had died and the country was in civil war. The need for an invasion seemed to fade, so the attack was called off.

WI Godfred hadn't been killed? Would Charlemagne have bothered conquering Denmark? Would he have been able to, and more importantly, would he have been able to hold it? I'm tempted to say no, but the book I'm reading right now suggests that it would have been possible.

Obviously if he is successful, the Viking age is probably killed off, or at least very weakened.

It's reallty a bad time Godfred was a major threat toward the Frankish Empire, the Frankish annuals which deal with sum up several war with hinm which was so succcesful, that every cease fire happen a river farther into Frankish territorium, the last cease fire was at the Weser. If Godfred survives he likely gain Old Saxony, and at least keep it to his death. Godfred death was quite blessing for the Franks and what's followed was decades of unrest beween his relatives until his son Erik had got rid of his rivals (including his four brothers*) mostly through banishments. The Franks best chance are supporting Harald Klaks attempts at reconquer Denmark**.

*one died ousting Harald Klak and his brother (whom died in the ousting), two were banished when Harald Klak returned and was made co-King with Erik and the last brother, whose end are unknown.

**and his best chance are if he become a less "good" Christian, his burning of holy places didn't gain many friends amog the Danes.
 
As in 826 the Franks would have been able to occupy Jutland but probably wouldn't be able to cross into the isles.

Yeah I probably should have said Frankish Jutland in the title. Didn't the Franks actually refer to Zealand and Scania as "Denmark"?

The Franks best chance are supporting Harald Klaks attempts at reconquer Denmark**.

So we're back to the other thread. Ok. In this situation, would Denmark just be a vassal of the Emperor of the Franks, or would it be incorporated directly into the Empire?
 
Okay, here a little scenario:

- Harald Klak reconquers Denmark with Frankish help and Jutland becomes a part of the Frankish Empire (whether it is a vassal or a Duchy, I'm not sure). Many Danish nobles flee to Scania and Zealand. Many missionaries move into Jutland to build convert the country.
- After the death of Louis the Pious, Jutland goes to Louis the German.
- Sometime in the chaos of the Carolingian civil wars, the Danes rebel and Jutland becomes independant again. Perhaps they invade Saxony and Frisia.
- Over time, they expand, mostly east at the expense of the Obodrites and Wends.
- There are now 2 "Denmarks": The Christian/Frankish influenced kingdom of Jutland, and the pagan kingdom of Scania.
- The Danes don't play a part in OTL's Viking Age. Norwegian, Swedish and Scanian expansion and exploration probably happen similar to OTL.
- Maybe the Geats incorporate with Scania ITTL rather than the Swedes?

Anyways, those are some ideas. All this is basically of the top of my head, so I will refine it soon.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Yeah I probably should have said Frankish Jutland in the title. Didn't the Franks actually refer to Zealand and Scania as "Denmark"?

Honestly the geographic size of Denmark are never mentioned by the Franks only its borders with the Franks. But it's clear that Danes orginated in Scania and Zealand, and only conquered the remnant Jutish and Anglish Kingdoms in Jutland later.

So we're back to the other thread. Ok. In this situation, would Denmark just be a vassal of the Emperor of the Franks, or would it be incorporated directly into the Empire?

Vassal at first, but it will likely be integrated into the Frankish Empire later, especially if Klak are given Rüstringen as a personal fief in TTL too. That give him a motivation for keeping himself on good terms with the Emperor.
 
This has been discussed thoroughly before.
Unfortulately, I can't provide a link; it's not easy to find a certain thread because our title aren't that systematic.
(It becomes a lot easier, of course, if the discussion thread is included into the
Timeline Classification Table :D).

Actic Warrior, do you happen to remember to that thread?
Beside you, Valdemar II. had cotributed valuably; one of the major insights was that Jutland was relatively easily defensible because the potential invasion corridor was rather narrow and also fortified.

There was this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and most probably a number of other threads dealing with Wiking Vinland and discussions on continued Pagan Scandinavia have something in them too. ;)

Harald Klak was about to conquer Denmark, got Jutland but the sons of Godfrey blocked access to the isles and when the attention of the emperor turned south they reconquered Jutland.

Usually when focused north something happened in other parts of the Frankish empire that would work against the Franks conquering Denmark.

Godfrey as already pointed to was a major opponent of Charlemagne - used that in an ooold thread on a certain Visit at the Emperors (shameless self promotion!) :D
 
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