This is based on a discussion I had with @The_Most_Happy @VVD0D95 @Fehérvári:

OTL Emperor Franz I had no living grandkids until the birth of the future emperor Franz Joseph. However, both he and his wife (Karoline of Bavaria), were very attached to their grandson, "Frankie", the duke of Reichstadt (aka Napoléon II). While the title on the box might sound ASB it's probably not as crazy as it sounds. In his private correspondence, Franz seems to have been monitoring his grandson's education/military education rather closely. Now, one can argue that it's because Frankie is the son of a man who was pretty much Europe's Most Wanted. But what if Franz had a different aim in mind: namely to set his grandson up as potential regent for the feeble King Goodinand?

After Franz died OTL, the government was shared amongst several rather uninspiring archdukes and Metternich. These archdukes seldom agreed on what colour the sky was, and Metternich exploited that. Also, most of the archdukes involved (Johann, Ludwig, and I almost think that the duke of Teschen was involved in some capacity as well), were well into their fifties at the time. The sort of men who didn't want to fiddle with anything too seriously. Telling is that Metternich excluded from this council the one archduke that was actually capable: Palatine Joseph of Hungary.

Now, Franz didn't trust his brothers any further than he could throw them, so I tend to doubt that this was his plan for the regency for Austria. And while he's commonly depicted as a slavish devotee of Metternich, the fact was that by the 1830s he was old, and didn't want conflict.

Enter Frankie. He's young, ambitious (he once declared that he would ascend the throne of God himself if He'd just step aside), and most of all, he's got the emperor's ear. Unfortunately, he died young, and we don't know what would have become of it. But we do get glimpses of it: Metternich advises Franz (in July 1830), to remove Reichstadt to "some distant provinces" the emperor refused. Metternich advises against sending Reichstadt to Italy (and while Franz ultimately doesn't, he gives his grandson a promotion to make up for it), and so on and so forth. Until the duke's death in 1832, every time Metternich says/suggests one thing, the emperor seems to go in the opposite direction.

On Franz:

On the whole, more traditional than his uncle, he [Franz I] was just as, if not more, pragmatic and would make decisions he thought in the best interests of his empire, whether it cast him in a positive light or not.


Now for my idea (the POD obviously being 1826 when Reichstadt contracted tuberculosis): what if Franz decides to kneecap Metternich by naming Frankie to a position in the government wherefrom, should something happen to the emperor, Reichstadt would be the one with the whip hand. This, of course, would be greatly assisted by the fondness that Empress Karoline, the future Emperor Ferdinand, and the famous Archduchess Sophie had for Reichstadt, as well as the apathy they (excepting Sophie) had towards Metternich.

Then there's the other aspect of it: the Viennese loved Reichstadt. Far from being mocked as "short" like his dad has been remembered, Reichstadt was over six-foot tall. His fiery temperament and dedication to the men of his 60th Regiment won him admiration and respect from soldiers
His young soldiers worshiped him. One day when he rode slowly by on his white horse, he looked so handsome, so serious, so soldierly that they could not refrain from giving him, a cheer, in defiance of their machinelike discipline.
His commanding officers, Prince Gustaf Vasa (the son of Gustav IV of Sweden), the duke of Nassau (Frankie started his army career in the 29th Infantry under the duke of Teschen's brother-in-law) and Major Antoine de Prokesch-Osten all rated him rather highly. Prokesch-Osten describes that "he knows more about war than the best of our generals serving at the moment", while Vasa wrote that "Every day I am surprised at the liveliness and soundness of his judgement, the clarity of his thought and his practical intelligence". Nor is this just onerous, since everything would suggest that he had the makings of a fine officer(specifically one that Metternich feared).

This makes the most likely position in government that Franz names him to the President of the Hofkriegsrat in 1831. While this is potentially a dangerous move in the eyes of Austria's allies, the fact of the matter is that most of them would probably feel more comfortable knowing that Frankie is "nailed to the floor" in Vienna by army duties than angling for the crowns of Belgium, Greece or Poland (all of which he tried for in vain). And, the best part is that, as part of the anti-Metternich faction (this doesn't equal liberals, Metternich was in favour of Charles X, Franz I of Louis Philippe if the comte de Chambord wasn't available), he's got a sort of "ready made" base. One of the anti-Metternich members of the imperial family is the aforementioned Archduke Joseph. Not so much Joseph being anti-Metternich than Metternich convinced Goodinand that Joseph was agitating for an independent Hungary (when nothing I've read on Joseph's character seems to indicate that), and was vehemently opposed to any reforms in Hungary. Joseph and Frankie ending up as allies of convenience - everything I've read on Frankie stresses how conservative he was, "dyed in the wool Habsburg" one biographer calls him - against Metternich. Of course, via Frankie, Joseph would have the ear of both Goodinand (who liked Frankie) and Franz I.

Not to mention that putting a young man in charge of the Hofkriegsrat instead of a man whose last battle was nearly 20 years ago, could do wonders for the Austrian military. Yes, I know Frankie never actually saw active military service, but he'd have served with men who had served in Italy and in other parts of the empire putting down rebellions in 1830. He'd understand that we can't keep running the show in 1835 like it's 1815. Yes, he'll be a pain in the ass to most of his military superiors who'll object to him wanting to change things...but it could mean that, if the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 still erupts, Austria - thanks to 15 years of Frankie's presiding over the army - doesn't need Russia to put it down. In fact, if Frankie's got any say in the matter, he'd be firmly against Russia, since he commented on a book on the 1812 campaign: I should like to see the Russians invade Austria one day, to make them go through a similar retreat, only with the difference that it would be our courage and not the bitter cold that would send them back to their snow.

If not saying that Frankie's gonna be some Wunderkind of statecraft and the army, but given the "lull" that dominated Austria between 1835-1848 (and the dragon's teeth it sowed for later in the century), he could hardly do worse. Bonus points if he actually trains up the future Franz Joseph instead of whoever got that job OTL.

Thoughts

PS: Sorry this got so long
 
I don't have much to add, and I don't know a lot about this subject, but I did want to say that I really like this idea and find it fascinating. And reading those descriptions of Nappy II ... damn, he really was a chip off the old block, wasn't he?
 

Ramontxo

Donor
If you plan to do a TL on this I strongly recommend you to sell your earthly possessions, abandon your family and enter an Carthusian monastery where under the "ora et labora" orders you would produce enough updates for my satisfaction.
Or just keep with this TL if suits you


(I was going to post an emoji indicating it was a joke, but the last time I put one, to show that there were no bad feelings in my answer, I got a warning so please take the afore expressed ideas as written with "animus jocandi")
 
Yes, all of the yes, if I wasn’t such a legitimist I’d want this Napoleon on the throne in Paris.
What do you mean man? The legitimate monarch of the French is his Majesty Napoleon-deux.

And reading those descriptions of Nappy II ... damn, he really was a chip off the old block, wasn't he?
Honestly I feel like it would be more in character for Napoleon II to try and retake the Imperial Throne of France the first chance he gets.
 
Honestly I feel like it would be more in character for Napoleon II to try and retake the Imperial Throne of France the first chance he gets.

Why not both? :)

He acts as regent for a number of years, gets experience, and uses the time to build up international recognition and support. And then, boom, retakes the French imperial throne :)
 
Not to mention that putting a young man in charge of the Hofkriegsrat instead of a man whose last battle was nearly 20 years ago, could do wonders for the Austrian military. Yes, I know Frankie never actually saw active military service, but he'd have served with men who had served in Italy and in other parts of the empire putting down rebellions in 1830. He'd understand that we can't keep running the show in 1835 like it's 1815.

There's another issue to this. The army was, in the Imperial Court, an extension of foreign policy. It was Metternich's domain and it was the scheming in the government that hollowed it out.

The entire OP sort of skips over another key member of the regency council - Count Franz Anton von Kolowrat-Leibsteinsky, the Imperial minister for finance and Metternich's rival in many ways. Kolowrat was a capable man, who had managed to get Austria's finances in some semblance of order after the ruinously expensive Napoleonic Wars and he was as committed to reforming the empire as Metternich himself was (albeit in a different way - there was little overlap between the two's ideas). Kolowrat was not above abusing his position and he cut the army budget to the bone to make sure Metternich couldn't use it (as in, the army budged didn't cover pay for all troops - the Austrian army had to send soldiers home to farm for a few months in the year). I could very well see Kolowrat either holding the army budget hostage in exchange for support for his own reform programme (he was notorious for being intransingent, particularly with Metternich's ideas which he blocked regularly) or getting the boot, but Austria's finances were fragile as it was and Kolowrat was a competent minister.

Thus, there were three opposing forces in the regency council, each pulling its own way. Adding a Napoleon to the pile might tip the scales, but it wouldn't exactly be smooth sailing.
 
There's another issue to this. The army was, in the Imperial Court, an extension of foreign policy. It was Metternich's domain and it was the scheming in the government that hollowed it out.

The entire OP sort of skips over another key member of the regency council - Count Franz Anton von Kolowrat-Leibsteinsky, the Imperial minister for finance and Metternich's rival in many ways. Kolowrat was a capable man, who had managed to get Austria's finances in some semblance of order after the ruinously expensive Napoleonic Wars and he was as committed to reforming the empire as Metternich himself was (albeit in a different way - there was little overlap between the two's ideas). Kolowrat was not above abusing his position and he cut the army budget to the bone to make sure Metternich couldn't use it (as in, the army budged didn't cover pay for all troops - the Austrian army had to send soldiers home to farm for a few months in the year). I could very well see Kolowrat either holding the army budget hostage in exchange for support for his own reform programme (he was notorious for being intransingent, particularly with Metternich's ideas which he blocked regularly) or getting the boot, but Austria's finances were fragile as it was and Kolowrat was a competent minister.

Thus, there were three opposing forces in the regency council, each pulling its own way. Adding a Napoleon to the pile might tip the scales, but it wouldn't exactly be smooth sailing.
TBH, I forgot about Kolowrat. But I could definitely see Frankie playing Metternich and Kolowrat off against one another to get what he wants.
 
There's another issue to this. The army was, in the Imperial Court, an extension of foreign policy. It was Metternich's domain and it was the scheming in the government that hollowed it out.

The entire OP sort of skips over another key member of the regency council - Count Franz Anton von Kolowrat-Leibsteinsky, the Imperial minister for finance and Metternich's rival in many ways. Kolowrat was a capable man, who had managed to get Austria's finances in some semblance of order after the ruinously expensive Napoleonic Wars and he was as committed to reforming the empire as Metternich himself was (albeit in a different way - there was little overlap between the two's ideas). Kolowrat was not above abusing his position and he cut the army budget to the bone to make sure Metternich couldn't use it (as in, the army budged didn't cover pay for all troops - the Austrian army had to send soldiers home to farm for a few months in the year). I could very well see Kolowrat either holding the army budget hostage in exchange for support for his own reform programme (he was notorious for being intransingent, particularly with Metternich's ideas which he blocked regularly) or getting the boot, but Austria's finances were fragile as it was and Kolowrat was a competent minister.

Thus, there were three opposing forces in the regency council, each pulling its own way. Adding a Napoleon to the pile might tip the scales, but it wouldn't exactly be smooth sailing.

I am fascinated by this timeline, while being utterly ignorant about OTL.
Do you mean that Nap II would end up beign the junior member in whatever alliance he managed to strike (tipping the scales but not managing to change the game)?
 
If the Habsburg Army is more capable and manages to suppress the revolts in Italy early, then there would be no time for the formation of the separate Hungarian army and the establishment of Hungarian monetary independence, therefore the Batthány-government would be more willing to adress the Court's grievances and give up on those two ambitions. Those were the only things the Court really cared about, the Hungarian government relenting on those fronts would almost certainly prevent war between Austria and Hungary. 90%. Well, the proposed scenario might even make so that the 1848 April Laws avoid addressing either of those fields, preventing the dispute altogether.
 
Wikipedia also says that Frankie was very good friends with Sophie of Bavaria, mother of future Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph I and Mexican Emperor Maximilian. So much so that Maximilian was rumoured to be Frankie's bastard son. Not sure how those rumours would affect things down the line, but it would linger longer if Frankie stays alive and keeps visiting Sophie and Maximilian.

Aside from that, Sophie ends up as quite a different person, since Frankie's death affected her quite a bit. She doesn't become quite as harsh as OTL, which would also affect the development of Franz Joseph as a person and how Empress Elisabeth deals with being empress. Add that to Frankie being influential to Franz Joseph's childhood and there's a storm of butterflies flapping around.
 
Wikipedia also says that Frankie was very good friends with Sophie of Bavaria, mother of future Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph I and Mexican Emperor Maximilian. So much so that Maximilian was rumoured to be Frankie's bastard son. Not sure how those rumours would affect things down the line, but it would linger longer if Frankie stays alive and keeps visiting Sophie and Maximilian.

Aside from that, Sophie ends up as quite a different person, since Frankie's death affected her quite a bit. She doesn't become quite as harsh as OTL, which would also affect the development of Franz Joseph as a person and how Empress Elisabeth deals with being empress. Add that to Frankie being influential to Franz Joseph's childhood and there's a storm of butterflies flapping around.
Maybe Franz Joseph could marry Anna of Prussia like he wanted OTL and we could avoid the whole Sissi disaster entirely
 
I am fascinated by this timeline, while being utterly ignorant about OTL.
Do you mean that Nap II would end up beign the junior member in whatever alliance he managed to strike (tipping the scales but not managing to change the game)?

I'd imagine he initially would initially - while Metternich had a power base since the Napoleonic Wars, Kolowrat built his own up since ... 1823 or so (when he was appointed to the government, IIRC). Archduke Louis IOTL did play Metternich and Kolowrat off against one another - as a conservative Habsburg he would make a natural ally for the Duke of Reichstadt, but Louis was a hard-core conservative and supporter of absolutism which IOTL didn't exactly solve the myriad issues building up in the Austrian Empire. As a general in the Napoleonic Wars (however lacking in significant triumphs) and a trusted emissary of Franz II, he would also be the senior figure at the start.

That said, I am fully in favour of any timeline with a Napoleonic Austria.
 
Wikipedia also says that Frankie was very good friends with Sophie of Bavaria, mother of future Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph I and Mexican Emperor Maximilian. So much so that Maximilian was rumoured to be Frankie's bastard son. Not sure how those rumours would affect things down the line, but it would linger longer if Frankie stays alive and keeps visiting Sophie and Maximilian.
on this point, I'd ignore wikipedia. From everything I've read, those rumours only started long after Frankie was dead, when there was talk of Austria and Hungary splitting in the 1850s, plus Max's "liberal" tendencies blah-blah. It served both sides' purposes to allow said rumours to continue. To the Hungarians, it was a good way of talking up a Habsburg archduke by portraying him as the grandson of a man who'd successfully stood against the Habsburgs. To the Austrians it was an awesome way of saying "hey, guess what, he doesn't actually have a right to that throne".

As to women where there actually is contemporary documented evidence that they were...more than friendly with Frankie:
  • Franziska Kinsky of Wchnitz, Princess Liechtenstein (first child born in 1834)
  • Her sister, Maria Anna, Princess of Solms (eldest son Ferdinand, born in May 1832, was purported to bear a striking resemblance to some members of the Habsburg family and there was suspicion that Ferdi was Reichstadt's kid)
  • Luise Auguste of Solms, Princess of Schwarzburg (daughter of Friederike of Mecklenburg and stepdaughter of Ernst Augustus of Hannover), her shortlived firstborn son (Karl Gunther) in 1828 was rumoured to be Reichstadt's love child by contemporary gossips. Even Luise's mother in London had heard the rumours
    Agnes of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Princess Lowenstein (mother-in-law of Miguel of Portugal). No rumours that I'm aware of. Although the irony of Miguel I marrying Napoleon's granddaughter is hilarious.
  • Therese of Saxe-Hildburghausen, Queen of Bavaria (she adored Reichstadt, following excerpt from the correspondence of his governor, Prince Dietrichstein)
the Queen [of Bavaria], who talked with me at length and her one topic was the prince [Reichstadt], who delights her. In brief, it is the general opinion that he has the making of an accomplished prince. He sparkles with wit, his conversation is finesse itself, and the consideration he has for everyone…give him an ease that is far beyond his age. Just before going to bed, he threw his arms about her and said, ‘Well, were you satisfied with me?’… Precisely because he is so lovable in society everyone thinks that he must be perfect in all respects.
  • Prince Dietrichstein's daughter, Julie, Princess of Oettingen-Wallerstein was another favourite dance partner and salon friend of Frankie's. Her eldest daughter, Marie (born July 1832) was suggested to be Reichstadt's when the time came for her to make her debut at court in the 1850s. The rumour so incensed Julie and Marie and so put potential bridegrooms off that Marie only married 1867 at the grand old age of 35. Even Julie dismissed it as "stuff and nonsense", her father had been at her bedside in Würzburg (not Munich as is often given as Marie's birthplace) as she recovered from the birth, that was why Prince Dietrichstein wasn't at his pupil/friend's bedside.
  • And finally, there's also a mention of a Princess Schönberg with whom Reichstadt was "friendly", but I can't find out who she is (since the Prince of [Erbach]-Schönberg only married in 1837, and it might be a spelling/transcription error of Schaumburg, Schonborn). An option is that it's Schomberg (as in Degenfeld-Schomberg), and the "Princess" would then be Charlotte von Durckheim-Montmotin (who died in 1831), but she was more than a decade older than Reichstadt. Then again, him having mommy issues wouldn't be the craziest thing. The other option for Degenfeld-Schomberg (although she wouldn't have been Princess Schomberg) is Mathilde of Schomberg (b.1812) who married a cousin, Paul of Schomberg, or Mathilde's sister, Ottolinde, who later became an abbess in Munich.

So Frankie was definitely a hit with the ladies (aside from Sophie), and those are just the ones I could find, and he was certainly popular with society in general (even taking Dietrichstein's words with a grain of salt) Frankie's behaviour with Therese of Saxe-Hildburghausen would've certainly moved far more pens had there been a scandal like her screaming or protesting). Everyone would've been nodding their heads and saying "yes, you can see he's his father's son"


Aside from that, Sophie ends up as quite a different person, since Frankie's death affected her quite a bit. She doesn't become quite as harsh as OTL, which would also affect the development of Franz Joseph as a person and how Empress Elisabeth deals with being empress. Add that to Frankie being influential to Franz Joseph's childhood and there's a storm of butterflies flapping around.
Sopherl being the villain/Queen to Sisi's Princess Diana is definitely an overexaggeration. Sisi (and Di after her) were not entirely innocent in the affair. And Sopherl was far from being the only person who disliked her. This had little to do with "jealousy" or Sisi being a "free spirit" or being pro-Hungary as often depicted, this had to do with the fact that Sisi was potentially the worst choice of potential worst choices. Sopherl tried to teach her daughter-in-law, tried to help her "adjust" to Vienna, to teach her the importance/necessity of "following", not because Sopherl was trying to be cruel or controlling, but because as a woman who had had four miscarriages before FJ was born, her being blamed for it (not the fact that her husband was an inbred dolt), a Protestant mother, and who had likewise been the victim of court libels, she knew what Sisi was going through. Even Sisi's mother sided with her sister against her daughter. Sisi politely ignored her mother-in-law's advice, and Sopherl finally washed her hands of the matter. But to characterize Sopherl as being the root of all her daughter-in-law's ills is to ignore the nuance of the situation. To see Sisi as some innocent victim/sacrificial lamb when through her behaviour she did as much damage to the Habsburg brand as Gavrilo Princip (over a far longer period).

I would be very grateful if they were to bring out a biography of Sopherl. The woman gets ignored by history beyond as the "villain" of the Sisi story, when really, she was definitely a player in her own right. Potentially far more involved than her daughter-in-law.

Frankie's survival would affect how the court treats Sisi as well. See, OTL, the chief chamberlain (or whatever his title was), the Count of Montenuovo, had a Hungary-sized chip on his shoulder against her. Why? He (and the courtiers) considered her "a parvenu" and "one of them" because she had an Arenberg/de la Marck grandmother/great-grandmother. Montenuovo, on the other hand, had an "empress for a mother" and having to yield precedence to a woman "born so low" was particularly galling for him. With Frankie surviving, his half-brother Montenuovo (bastard son of Marie Louise and Count Neipperg) is likely to amount to little more than the Counts of Meran or any other morganatic branch of the Habsburgs. Why? Because Frankie would check Montenuovo's ambitions. One of Montenuovo's arguments was also that he should inherit Marie Louise's Silesian estates (even FJ thought this was ridiculous, and he settled those estates on Sisi, who used the incomes to fund her "roadshow lifestyle" and build her villa in Greece) that had been settled on her at the Congress of Vienna. If Frankie's around (potentially with kids), Montenuovo either doesn't get the appointment to start with, and sure as Hell can't give himself all the heirs and graces he did OTL. Even Montenuovo's contemporaries thought he was a stickler.
 
Franz beign a ladies man sounds a lot of fun.

And i really like your efforts on demostrating the depths of the people of this story, although Sisi has my utmost sympathy, she really didnt make herself any favors more often than not. We always want things to be black and white, heroes and villains, when the simple truth is there that things are never so simple.

Saying that, it relieves me that Franz' survival will spurn changes for the better.
 
Saying that, it relieves me that Franz' survival will spurn changes for the better.
unless you're France (who's probably getting very nervous). But I suppose it depends on what Charles X does. Personally I wouldn't be averse to him say...falling when getting out of bed the morning he wants to go publish the 4 ordinances that caused the July Revolution. He cracks his noggin on the bedside table and while he's unconscious/comatose, Angoulême is de facto regent of France, maybe does some damage control. Charles X wakes up (I'm not heartless) after a few days/weeks and he has memory loss of the ordinances (which Angoulême has conveniently burned with his wife's agreement).

Angoulême: what's that dad?
Charles: I had a piece of paper here, with my ideas on it.
Angoulême: *looks around study* *full of papers that meet that description*
Charles: *frustratedly* I can't find anything around here.
Angoulême: what was the piece of paper for, dad. Maybe Marie or I have seen it
Charles: it was the ideas I wanted to present to the Chambers...I wanted to...*bursts into tears* I can't remember what it was-
Angoulême: *hugs his dad* there, there, chief. You'll remember what you wanted-
Charles: *wailing now*[1]

[1] Charles is past seventy by this point, to imagine that he's a bit senile and a bit overemotional (courtesy of both the head bump and the whole senile bit) isn't that far fetched.
 
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